[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[jarvisyu]

@ GerryT: So Darkness and I were playtesting a mirror the other day. We got into a discussion about siding out FoW in the mirror. He kept in two for our post-board games while I had mine sided out for most of them. He was able to either tempo me out or at least stop me from getting to far ahead in many games. I tried keeping two in at some point. It seemed to work out pretty good for me sometimes, but I just still wasn't sure whether it was good enough to keep MD since they seem like terrible top decks late game. I know your known for having a different opinion on when or when not side FoW out whereas many others just seem to side all of them out when playing against non-combo decks. I guess my question is do you keep any FoWs in the mirror or against any Jace deck? Also, is Maelstrom Pulse worth having in the deck for Jace mirrors despite the potential draw back post-board?

I like leaving in 1-2 nowadays for postboard games because of Notion Thief (to a lesser degree) and getting ahead on board is a very real thing. Sometimes Ancestral Vision is too slow to catch you up if you get too far behind on board.

[Darkness]

I like leaving in 1-2 nowadays for postboard games because of Notion Thief (to a lesser degree) and getting ahead on board is a very real thing. Sometimes Ancestral Vision is too slow to catch you up if you get too far behind on board.

This was my line of thinking when I put them in. The matchup has small pieces of card advantage, and then someone usually has a blow out spell, which unless you stop it or have a follow up blow out spell, that determines the winner of the match. 1-2 FoW allows you to stop that one key spell, a Resolving Visions/Hymn/Thief/JtMS, without sacrificing to much card disadvantage. When we tested, which was my first time with the mirror, I felt like all I wanted were spells that would generate as much as possible. The matchup was usually very slow until a big spell hit and then that player just took over the game. I think 1-2 FoW is correct to keep in.

[GerryT]

@ GerryT: So Darkness and I were playtesting a mirror the other day. We got into a discussion about siding out FoW in the mirror. He kept in two for our post-board games while I had mine sided out for most of them. He was able to either tempo me out or at least stop me from getting to far ahead in many games. I tried keeping two in at some point. It seemed to work out pretty good for me sometimes, but I just still wasn't sure whether it was good enough to keep MD since they seem like terrible top decks late game. I know your known for having a different opinion on when or when not side FoW out whereas many others just seem to side all of them out when playing against non-combo decks. I guess my question is do you keep any FoWs in the mirror or against any Jace deck? Also, is Maelstrom Pulse worth having in the deck for Jace mirrors despite the potential draw back post-board?

I typically don't keep in Force of Wills in the mirror and instead prioritize being ahead on board in order to attack their planeswalkers. I like Pulse because it's something you can dig for if you're very far behind. If you both have Jace, I don't think I'm concerned with Pulse being symmetrical. The only place I like FOW where others don't (I think) is against RUG.

[Kyle]

Not much of a tournament report, but two guys played discard-heavy Shardless BUG builds at our local last night and got 1st and 2nd. Meta included 12-Post, UWR Stoneblade (me), Esper Stoneblade, 12-Post, Zoo, and two players playing Affinity. Not all top-tier decks, but I think it says something about this archetype: it's got a lot of business spells to handle a lot of different competitors.

[Kyle]

I typically don't keep in Force of Wills in the mirror and instead prioritize being ahead on board in order to attack their planeswalkers. I like Pulse because it's something you can dig for if you're very far behind. If you both have Jace, I don't think I'm concerned with Pulse being symmetrical. The only place I like FOW where others don't (I think) is against RUG.

Sorry for the double-post, but wanted to comment on this. We had this same discussion last night and came to a similar conclusion - FoW just isn't good in the mirror, whereas pointed discard (i.e. loading up on Thoughtseizes) is so much more imperative.

[GerryT]

Sorry for the double-post, but wanted to comment on this. We had this same discussion last night and came to a similar conclusion - FoW just isn't good in the mirror, whereas pointed discard (i.e. loading up on Thoughtseizes) is so much more imperative.

FOW is likely better in the mirror than Thoughtseize, but both are poor. The matchup between any midrange blue deck is about board presence and being able to grind out long games. Both FOW and Thoughtseize are inefficient answers against a deck with redundant threats, and both are bad topdecks later. You are better off loading up on trumps and/or one-for-one answers.

[Dzra]

You are better off loading up on trumps and/or one-for-one answers.

I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen anyone try this yet, but as far as trumps for the Blue midranged and control MUs go, Vraska can be a serious house.

[Linqed]

Casting a 5 mana planeswalker is pretty hard in a 22-land deck though.

[Kyle]

Okay, I finally got around to "completing" the primer with up-to-date info on match-up strategy and some successful lists. If you are interested, I would love some constructive criticism on the Match-ups part. I know it's my personal strategy, but I think it's pretty good and I have had personal success with it. I went through the last 12 pages of posts to use as reference for the section. I'm hoping that now, instead of people saying "go read through the last few pages of the thread to read more on..." in answer to certain questions people can just say "read the primer."

And I'm very happy with making revisions and pulling strategies out of my suggestions if people want to input their 2 cents or think my advice just sucks.

[Dzra]

Casting a 5 mana planeswalker is pretty hard in a 22-land deck though.

It's not so hard when you're running 4 Deathrites and get into a grindy MU.

[kingsey]

So I played Gerry's list last night for the first time against jund & stoneblade. All preboard. The deck is fun and draws a ton of cards, but I felt my only threats were goyf.

Are these bad match ups pre board?

I'm finally coming over from team America, but I felt underwhelmed. I really wanted to love this deck.

I loved the fact your brainstorms really count and you can set up some obnoxious stuff, but I wanted others input.

[Kyle]

So I played Gerry's list last night for the first time against jund & stoneblade. All preboard. The deck is fun and draws a ton of cards, but I felt my only threats were goyf.

Are these bad match ups pre board?

I'm finally coming over from team America, but I felt underwhelmed. I really wanted to love this deck.

I loved the fact your brainstorms really count and you can set up some obnoxious stuff, but I wanted others input.

Though 'goyf is your main beater, it's hardly your only threat. Specifically, Deathrite Shaman unanswered will deal 2 lifeloss to your opponent every turn, which, when combined with Hymning and Thoughtseizing them will add synergy to your graveyard dependent strategy.

Jund and Stoneblade aren't bad matchups preboard at all. Any match-up can be tough, but these two are very manageable.

Against Jund you want to prevent Punishing Fire or Dark Confidant getting online, save your Wastelands for Grove of the Burnwillows and Abrupt Decay for Bob. If they get a Sylvan Library out, get rid of it as soon as possible. This innocuous enchantment will allow them to tear you to ribbons. Their main disruption is discard, so use your Brainstorms reactively to save or set up your threats, and lastly, don't overvalue Jace.

I have regular success against Stoneblade, as they have no answers to Abrupt Decay and don't run enough counters to prevent your cascades. Proactive removal of Stoneforge Mystic is your primary goal, since Batterskull is public enemy #1. Then, Jace is your next big annoyance, which can be dealt with using Creeping Tar Pit.

Coming from Team America I can understand that you feel underwhelmed at first, as you're playing a more tempo-style deck and a lot of interaction, probably with Delver and Daze. You're used to a full disruption package in the form of Force of Will, Daze, Hymn, and Thoughtseize, and you're now mostly relying on discard. This deck's strategy is proactive hand control and reactive board control that is good mid- to late-game. But the sheer difficulty many decks have handling cascade is what makes this deck so powerful, not to mention the ability to "play Ancestral Recall" in Legacy. Drawing bajillions of cards is stupid good. Cascade is stupid good in a deck where you really don't mind casting your spells for free. Ancestral Vision, Hymn, Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Baleful Strix. Yeah, this deck plays difficult to counter high value 2-drops you get for 3 mana, and a 2/2 body alongside it.

[ShiftyKapree]

Okay, I finally got around to "completing" the primer with up-to-date info on match-up strategy and some successful lists. If you are interested, I would love some constructive criticism on the Match-ups part. I know it's my personal strategy, but I think it's pretty good and I have had personal success with it. I went through the last 12 pages of posts to use as reference for the section. I'm hoping that now, instead of people saying "go read through the last few pages of the thread to read more on..." in answer to certain questions people can just say "read the primer."

And I'm very happy with making revisions and pulling strategies out of my suggestions if people want to input their 2 cents or think my advice just sucks.

Hey do you think for the matchups can you add what you board in and out against each matchup please. I just started playing the deck and would appreciate if you can give me advice on boarding for every matchup

[GrugalM]

I have been running GerryT's list for while now and have had decent success at a local level and his list did well for me at GP Vegas at both Side Events. (1st and 7th)


I am currently running this and loving it. This is basically based off of Leejay's spicy recommendation with Whipflares. Don't look too much into the sideboard besides the Whipflares.

I have been playtesting against Deathblade, UWR Delver, RUG Delver, Dark Maverick, and D&T for the pass 2 weeks and it has been wrecking.

Basically all fair decks....I know, I will expand the playtesting into Show and Tell, UW Miracales and TES in the next coming weeks.

Baleful Strix is such an incredible card, its weird I feel like I see the 2 Mainboard FoW more often now than from before when I ran 3. And I feel more comfortable using them in this build than the previous build.

Strix just gets there pinging for 1 and being able to kill anything.

And the deck is all in on the 4 Hymn to Tourach plan which is the one card that gets sided out the most but its still great mainboard because it puts your opponent in this awkward positioning of trying be more proactive with their board state instead of reactive and then it makes them more sensitive to being mana screwed because of the 4 wasteland package and Hymn hitting lands out of their hand.

Oh and did I mention how POWERFUL Whipflare is?! I'm loving it.


Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Spells:22
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Force of Will

Lands:22
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Whipflare
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Force of Will

[SansSerif]

Has anyone considered 2-3 copies of Ponder in our list? I have been testing it with mixed results - the additional caltrips help bring consistency to our deck and allow us to save brainstorm so we can setup a cascade into Visions. Ponder is also a great topdeck late game and has often helped me to find whichever card i need to closeout a match. The downsides are the occasional blind cascade into ponder and the slight loss in tempo in early turns while i am spending mana on caltrips instead of developing a board.

I have fit Ponders in by trimming single copies of some situational cards (Decay, Strix, planes walker) with the assumption that less copies are needed with the added searching power.

[Kyle]

Hey do you think for the matchups can you add what you board in and out against each matchup please. I just started playing the deck and would appreciate if you can give me advice on boarding for every matchup

@Shifty: I don't like giving card-per-card boarding strategy as it can sometimes mire you in a particular way of thinking, and your game situation will dictate what you actually need to board. Read the Sideboard Cards section in the primer, it's as descriptive as possible and and will tell you what sideboard cards to run. The match-up section will tell you what sideboard cards are helpful in particular situations.

As a general strategy, however, Force of Will is probably the first card to cut/board out against aggro or aggro-midrange decks, such as Maverick and Death & Taxes and for the most part any heavy control deck, in order to bring in discard and more spot removal.

Against non-permanent-based combo (ANT, High Tide) you probably don't need your Abrupt Decays, but to load up on Force of Wills and discard spells.

@SansSerif: Though cantrips/filtering is helpful, I just about never want to cascade into a Brainstorm, so adding more "Brainstorms" is definitely not the way I want to go. I will sometimes board out some Brainstorms (heresy, I know), against aggro and midrange decks, since I'd rather just load up on more business spells. Blind cascading into a filter spell like this (especially when tapped out), can spell your own doom.

[Wurst2000]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

[Darkness]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

I feel that Liliana Shines against heavy control, Fringe decks ( such as enchantress ) and slower Midrange Blue decks, that don't play L Souls. She is optimal when you have a relevant threat presences. Just like the article that GerryT wrote this week, when he was facing CVM and CVM was throwing all this discard without a threat, it was inevitable that GerryT would pull ahead because of the lack of pressure. Liliana is no different, you need a threat, or at least something to get in front of things attacking her, for her to work at her best.

[Kyle]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

At first I wasn't the biggest fan of Liliana, and then I realized how much power she brings to the table as a 2-of in your 75. Simply put, she can establish a board control that can rocket you ahead. Your card advantage is so good that you're not afraid of discarding off her +1, not to mention her +1 doesn't target, so it can help in your combo match-ups where Leyline of Sanctity is in play.

She's particularly good against Miracles, ANT, Maverick (even though they swarm), and Sneak Attack/OmniTell, but is very vulnerable without protection.

[Wurst2000]

that's exactly what i was thinking, she is good when you are already ahead on board and this deck is really good at staying ahead even without liliana and she is good against decks like sneak'n'show, miracles which aren't tier 1 decks right now. I really like liliana as a card but i think that against the decks that are heavly played right not there are better cards to have!