@Davis: You might be able to get away with 3 maindeck. I wasn't sure what I wanted my list to be since its the first time I've played without top for a while. I figured if I'm cutting top, then I really want to be playing chalice on turn 1 every single game (against non stax decks) and 100% want 4 in the 75. Also chalice is the only one of our lock pieces that actually works in multiples so I'd play 4 of those over 4 of anything else. That said, with a full set of chalices, shaving the fourth 3 sphere might be profitable. Before it was the only real answer to storm, and just happened to be the best card against the most recent iteration of show and tell (omni). Having the chalices for storm, and omni not dominating the meta game, I think 3 trinispheres would have been a better call. Still not sure on the numbers, hopefully we'll find a correct set before DC. As for titan, dude is a baller! Casting him against elves is too much fun.
@hdeck12: I've done some testing with scroll rack and I agree with you, I've seldom had enough cards in hand to make it count. Next I'm going to test 2 crystal ball main deck, although its CC 3 kind of scares me...
I agree that with lock pieces 4 sandstone needle are too much, but I would replace one of them with a basic mountain.
In the end, however, I think that Chalices are stronger than Tops, especially with only 5 fetches in the deck: they lose much potential with so few shuffle effects. So I'm planning to develop a solid "prison" version of the deck.
Keep posting your results and thoughts!!!
Ignorance is strength
Been playing MUD (Forgemaster combo) for a while and fancied a bit of a change. About half of my decklist is actually the same, but this is what I will be rocking up to legacy with next weekend:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
2 Worldspine Wurm
2 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Koth
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Sandstone Needles
9 Mountains
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Bloodmoon
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Pyromancy
SB: 2 Chaos Warp
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
Notes: The single wurmcoil has been pretty good in testing, helps vs agro if you have a slow hand, and its good to sneak in if you have to, while being easy to cast as well. There is an argument to be made that its not better than a 3rd Titan, but I love the card so I want to keep it in.
10 Maindeck lock pieces might be too much, but I'm going to test it. The 3 3sphere/blood moon are because they are bad in multiples, while Chalice is still okay because you can easily Chalice for 0/1/2 in some matchups.
No Faithless Looting or Sensei's Top because of the chalice/3sphere. The sb bloodmoon might change to a sb 3sphere.
I don't like Pyromancy much, but I've been told to run it for against control so I'm trying it out in the side.
I'm doing GP Oakland this weekend and I'll have all day to kill on Friday. I plan on doing a lot of win a boxes and the legacy challenge. I'm still on the blightsteel plan, I like the free wins too much.
1st- heck of a fun deck!
I haven't yet played the deck in competition, but have playtested and noticed a couple things....finding the right combo on 'lock' pieces seem critical, but at the same time choosing those pieces that don't hose yourself at the same time is a bit of a challenge.... for instants; 'Top' almost seems essential to gathering and filtering, but playing CoV @ 1 is pretty key on alot of MU's too....Blood Moon is a hoser, but I have found it hoses me just as much as my opponent...nothing like turning my Tomb/Sandstone into basics when Seething song in hand.. (and if I bring it down later, then it just really negates the point of using it to begin with...maybe I'm not using it correctly?).... So this brings me to putting BM and CoV into the Board and running Defense Grid and 3sphere main....is that enough, IDK...
Another thought- pyromancy just isn't doing it for me...but I was thinking about testing out 2 Fury of the Horde in its place (you can play it with Sneak and TTB, correct?)
***** I decided to cut 3 of the 'Tops' and put gitaxian probes in their place- quite an improvement!!! Not only do I see what I'm up against, but draw is great! I may actually cut the last top for anoth probe depending on testing.
Josh
Last edited by metelhead; 08-21-2013 at 08:02 PM.
Currently running 4 CoV, 3 Moon, 1 3sphere, 0 SDT MB; 3 3sphere, 1 moon 1 SDT SB.
@metalhead: Don't waste your time with Fury of the horde. It'd be a sweet play, I'll give you that, but it's overkill. If you resolve one sneak effect, you should win the game. Emrakul wipes their board, Wurm deals ~30 damage, griselbrand gives you one or both of the other two. You're turning a 5 card (3 lands/2 lands + song/land + guide or petal + song, Sneak effect, Creature) combo into an 8 card (all of those 5 carders plus Fury and 2 red cards) combo without speeding the combo up, slowing the opponent down, OR adding library manipulation. As for moon, play it ASAP. If you have other options AND they have access to colored mana (fetch, basic, or deathrite + lands in the graveyard) then don't waste your resources and cast your real spells. It's main purposes are; 1.lock your opponent out of the game, 2.disable their Karakas or Wasteland/Rishadan Port. After that, it doesn't do much. I haven't tried Gitaxian Probe yet. It seems great but I can't convince myself to cut a real card for it. It really messes up the way I mulligan which is hard enough for "stompy" as it is. But I'll try anything twice, so soon I'll try a list with a set of them. Keep us updated on how it works out! As for pyromancy, it's pretty terrible against most decks. As a one of, I can usually convince someone to blow a Force of Will on it after pointing out how many cards are in my hand and what the probability their CMC is 'a lot' is. And sometimes for 10 mana(4, 3, 3) it deals lethal. I side it out 90% of the time, but until I find a 'must counter' 4 drop, it'll probably stay as a 1 of. This spot could easily be a titan or wurmcoil. Whatever you choose, it should be a castable threat that can race a delver, and preferably 4CMC or less. There's a lot of love for Koth of the Hammer out there, but I don't think he does enough in the starting 60.
@HansonWK: There's nothing wrong with playing Wurmcoil Engine in one of these lists. Coil helps make up for the Ancient Tomb damage, is an 'almost' acceptable sneak target, and gives you another out to Reanimator/Iona, Shield of Emeria(worst matchup). I prefer Titan because he impacts the board when you play him, deals with two of our problem cards Spell Pierce and Gaddock Teeg, is a two turn faster clock than coil, and is the stone cold nuts against one of the more popular decks: elves.
i'm on the all dudes plan this weekend
4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
8 mountain
1 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy
1 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
4 blightsteel colossus
3 inferno titan
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
sideboard
1 grafdigger's care
2 pyroblast
1 koth of the hammer
3 trinisphere
2 volcanic fallout
3 defense grid
1 word of seizing
2 chaos warp
Last edited by xdavisx; 08-22-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Good luck and tell us how it'll go!
Ignorance is strength
Good Luck Davis...I wanna hear a sweet Word of Seizing story (and of course results) when you get back!
mos def i'll post some results. quick thought, is defense grid and trinisphere overkill in the sideboard? trinisphere does pretty much the same thing as defense grid. any suggestions for a replacement?
Not off the top of my head, but even though they do sorta the same thing, I use them for different matchups. Spheres for Unfair Decks, Grids for Fair decks. Sphere is more about stopping the opponent from killing us, Grid is about stopping the opponent from stopping us. REB is a good sub for grid. You just have to side out your chalices when they come in.
Originally Posted by hdeck12
Thanks for the response.....Yeah I knew Fury was just more of a Magic Xmasland, but worth a mention I guess. I need to experiment more with Blood Moon match ups- and give it a fair shake....but for now its in my Board. thx
YO so I'm playing this deck at a big tournament on Sunday because Fish hates it when the Delver players are smart enough to play equipment, Plow, and Lavamancer. Also it can't beat that dumb mono-U deck, I hate it when you can't waste combo decks
I'm expecting the typical Pacific-Northwest mishmash of blue players who are aggressive, blue players who are controlling, and blue players who like combo.
Bearing in mind this Blue meta please help me make my list not suck
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal
-
5 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
--
BORED
--
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroclasm
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
---
Questions:
-manabase OK?
-so I'd think MD trini would be better than MD blood moon in such a meta, but mono-red combo hero just won the Canadian event with Imperial Painter, a Blood Moon combo deck with an incidental instakill finish. He said he just mooned people and they died. he's kind of an exhibitionist? anyway i was told to do Moon instead and Moon indeed seems right to me
-should we be Kothing instead of Pyromancy in such a meta? I think Koth has gotta be better when we're facing down control, but who knows
-with the 4 tops i want a 6th fetch but who knows if that's right (going down to 4 mountains obv)
-discard seemed like a problem (we need resources to go off), are leylines worth it? (we can usually top em away)
-i passionately hate grafdigger's cage and would jump on a card with decent VORP
-i wanna play some non-zero amount of chaos warps because there's this smug balding man who is probably reading this right now and getting wet at the idea of GSZing for Teeg and laughing as i rip Cage off the top
THANK YOU ALL
Why does no one splash white? Guy at my local runs through our local weekly with a white splash for orims and he gets to play karakas to bounce teeg. It's a hell of a beating
I've never splashed white but I tell you that leyline should be 4 or 0: better to maximize the chalice, which protect against discards too.
Then I'll swap one sandstone for one ancient tomb in order to maximize the opportunity of having 2 mana on turn one (which is good for defense grid too).
As hdeck explains, blood moon is for the fair matchups while trinisphere is for the unfair decks: choose what to main accordingly to your meta but keep at least 3 of each between your 75.
Ignorance is strength
If you are expecting lots of blue, cut the tops and fetches, a stifled fetch can lose games, but more importantly you want to up your hate cards. 4 chalice, 3 trinisphere, 3 blood moon. Blue will have a control will have a hard time if the last 2 resolve, combo will have a hard time if any resolve.
I didn't do so how in the legacy challenge. I went 3-3 then dropped cause it was like 11pm and there still were 2 rounds left. Matches I lost were to mulligans to oblivion and game loss for misregistering my deckand to fish.
Bright side is there was another big red player doing well! MiniReport will come soon.
Last edited by xdavisx; 08-24-2013 at 08:16 PM.
@Davis: Weak sauce! Maybe next time you shouldn't mulligan and should just draw good cards from the start ;-)
@Megadeus: Well I guess it wouldn't be "Big Red" then would it. It's definitely an option. I guess the major difference is we're using early mana to lay lock pieces and go of early. The chant version wouldn't be doing anything with its early mana. If you play moon, it'll be difficult to get white, and even if you can afford a basic plains then you still shut off your sol lands while trying to reach an even higher threshold of 6 mana instead of 5. If you play 3 sphere, now you have to get to 8 mana in order to use chant. If you play chalice, then forget about chant. A splash reduces most of the synergy of the deck. I believe there could be some R/W version of sneak attack with E.Tutor/Silence/Blightsteel/STP, but it's an entirely different build than what we've been working on.
@CML: For starters kingtk is correct. IF you play leylines, it's 4 or 0.
1. Your manabase: Looks good, if you stick with tops and want the 6th fetch, you can drop the 4th sandstone. You could also cut the lotus petal for a fetch. However, that gives you one less chance to play your T1 moon which it sounds like you want to be doing as much as possible.
2. Maindeck Moon. Yeah it's sweet. However it's only 50/50 in stopping storm players and does pretty much nothing against "that dumb mono-U deck". If you're trying to beat the blue decks AND want to play top, defense grid will help. 4 maindeck moons is a lot when it can do nothing in some matchups. I recommend 3 in the main, and either a defense grid or a 3sphere.
3. I've given up on Koth. However if you end up with a 4 moon maindeck, he might be ok. I think 1 pyromancy/1 koth is a good split since they both fulfill the role of beating control and are both actually worthless in multiples. Without any way to protect him though he dies to almost any resolved creature.
4. I think 4 mountains is enough, but when you're trying to slam moon as many times as possible, cutting a sandstone might be better as it still comes in tapped under moon, and on the draw giving the opponent two uninterrupted turns is usually enough for them to stick a threat that can race a moon.
5. Discard. I never found discard to be too much of a problem with top in the deck. You have to go easy on mulligans against discard. If you know they're going to open on discard, you can keep worse hands because they'll be trying to disrupt you instead of pressure you. And given time, you can draw right out of it. If you are worried about it though, 4 leylines is a better plan than 2. Just don't expect them to stop storm. Too many times I've brought them in, and mulliganed to them only to see chain of vapors put it right back in my hand and have no way to cast it or brainstorm it away.
6. Grafdiggers cage. Pretty good card no matter how much you hate it. The fact that it covers two bases (grave/GSZ) as one card is hard to let go of. Karakas can do this too a little differently. The two real problems are Iona (grave) and Teeg (GSZ), both of which karakas can bounce. The cage keeps Craterhoof Behomoth from coming out turn two as well. If you cut the leylines for Warps then between warp/pyroclam/inferno titan you can handle teeg. The cage's could become more dedicated grave hate as tormods crypt(preferred) or relic of progenitus(acceptable).
7. Chaos warp: Could take the place of the two leylines.
GOOD LUCK and bring us back a report!
Bonus Advice: You can beat "that dumb mono-U" deck. Just be patient and mulligan to the necessary cards, you're NOT the aggressor in the matchup.
A MILLION THANKS. Time to wake up and murder the world
do you get a game loss for offensive deck names
Hey CML, how did you do?
I heard that smug, balding guy is 4-0.
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