All B/R update speculation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Except that with storm you actually have pretty hard time winning, it's not like you play DRit*2 and win.

[Norm]

Apparently this thread needs another round of "I think SNT is broken" vs "You're dumb, it's just another combo deck". Perhaps someone from this forum should rally the forces and just get everyone to play SNT at the next big tournament so they can prove to the world that the blue monstrosity must go, oh wait...

Really, though. To say that this one particular combo deck is boring to play is just ignorant and holds no weight when voiced from someone actively campaigning for an unwarranted ban.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's silly. People don't think SnT is just another combo deck. They think it's an exceptionally dull and uninteresting combo deck.

"What if I cast this spell that lets me win the game?"

What if what if what if.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm quite sure Wizards has analyzed the applications of SNT and compared them to other combo decks, they're intelligent enough to arrive at the conclusion that each deck has it's strengths and weaknesses and the community has proven repeatedly that none of them are too powerful to exist.

This is a remarkably bold statement. What on Earth is your reasoning for this certainty, given that Wizards has never demonstrated that they spend anything like this much time and attention to managing Legacy as a format before, even if we are to taken their competence at such a task as a given?

I might point you here to the bicycle shed problem or the flaws with efficient market theory.

Or simply say two words: "gentleman's agreement."

[Dice_Box]

SnT is a very boring and easy to do 2 card combo that slots into many decks with easy. There is quite a few decks that run it in the side if it is not main and use it to do crazy things.

The card itself is fine, its the printing of the cards it abuses that causes problems. The card at this point is seen as a non issue by WotC, (or they would have done something about it) but as more and more powerful cards are printed that it can abuse it is on the path to banning. When it hits a critical mass we will see an end to the card. That day is not today so I would say buy an Angel of Despair and though her into your sideboard. That or get some discard. Because talking about this issue here is helping no one and its a become a merry go round of a conversation that is never very merry.

Oh and personally, the sooner SnT is banned the better. But since that has not happened yet, no point taking digs at one another over it.

[Norm]

This is a remarkably bold statement. What on Earth is your reasoning for this certainty, given that Wizards has never demonstrated that they spend anything like this much time and attention to managing Legacy as a format before, even if we are to taken their competence at such a task as a given?

I might point you here to the bicycle shed problem or the flaws with efficient market theory.

Or simply say two words: "gentleman's agreement."

To think for a moment that Wizards doesn't consider potentially broken cards in a GP format would be totally ignorant. The fact that you're asking me to sell you on the concept is absurd. I might point you here to "Common Sense For Dummies".

The card isn't too powerful for legacy right now. The only arguments against that are mostly comprised of idiotic statements like "well, you just cast SNT and then you win" as though no other requirements exist and that winning is a guarantee upon resolution. Get real.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To think for a moment that Wizards doesn't consider potentially broken cards in a GP format would be totally ignorant. The fact that you're asking me to sell you on the concept is absurd. I might point you here to "Common Sense For Dummies".

This is not how argumentation works. In your earlier post you wanted it to be taken as self-evident that Wizards watches over and cares for the Legacy format closely. I have rejected your prior. You cannot continue as if this point is unquestionably axiomatic. Accept that others reject this premise and address that, or abdicate the conversation.

The card isn't too powerful for legacy right now. The only arguments against that are mostly comprised of idiotic statements like "well, you just cast SNT and then you win" as though no other requirements exist and that winning is a guarantee upon resolution. Get real.

No, you are failing to read. The complaint isn't that you just cast Show and Tell and then you win, although that is usually the natural consequence of casting Show and Tell successfully and the intermediating steps are generally pretty trivial in function.

The problem is that you just cast Show and Tell and that's it that's what the deck does is cast Show and Tell. The fact that it does not necessarily win from casting Show and Tell does not make the deck any less boring and only makes it marginally less oppressive.

Like the SnT decks are comparable in structure and playstyle to Hulk-Flash, except Hulk-Flash, while certainly being a couple rungs higher in power, was significantly more complex in execution and in possible interaction points with the combo. SnT'ing a Griselbrand into play by contrast is a pretty uninspiring sequence of events.

[troopatroop]

I totally agree with IBA, Show and tell is VERY similar to Flash. It's actually really really close. Show and Tell just HAS to go. It's mundane, degenerate, and takes the interaction out of Magic. It's entirely too strong with Griselbrand, and if fucking SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST is "too degenerate", wizards had better be fucking consistent about things.

[troopatroop]

Also, Someone needs to restart this thread. The Poll at the top of the page is YEARS old.

[mini1337s]

Also, Someone needs to restart this thread. The Poll at the top of the page is YEARS old.

Dreadnaught needs to go, bro.

Show and Tell is linear, sure, but by banning it, you don't nerf one deck, you kill multiple archetypes. Sneak and Show and Omnitell are the 2 biggest hits, but consider the effects it would have on Reanimator, Turbo Eldrazi, and to some extent Tin Fins.
Sure, the combo is "easy" and requires a different skillset than storm based decks, but the results have been clear for some time now: Show and Tell, while an impactful player in the metagame does not dominate the metagame.

On a different note, I think if there was ever a time that WOTC could/would consider unbanning Survival, it's right now. With the presence of Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, and Scavenging Ooze, this seems like a prime time to bring that archetype back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree that Survival should come back. And if there's a problem get rid of Vengevine. Survival was a very very interesting archetype that led to a lot of interesting games and interesting meta decisions making it the complete polar fucking opposite of Show and Tell ever since they decided to make a sport out of designing EDH cards to make EDH players hate EDH.

[mini1337s]

I agree that Survival should come back. And if there's a problem get rid of Vengevine. Survival was a very very interesting archetype that led to a lot of interesting games and interesting meta decisions making it the complete polar fucking opposite of Show and Tell ever since they decided to make a sport out of designing EDH cards to make EDH players hate EDH.

I think it would be difficult for Vengevine to spiral out of control like it used to considering the amount of Deathrites that are running around. Also, if your opponents on the Vengevine plan, they better get ready to get a Surgical Extraction right to the cock.
It would open up a whole new element of variety for the green-based decks and Green Sun Zenith wouldn't be the only tutor worth playing anymore.

[Dice_Box]

I disagree. With Scavenging Ooze, Gofy, Knight and the new green mythic that's coming I think Survival is far from fit to unban.

[HPB_Eggo]

To really sum up the whole argument about banning Show and Tell...

Show and Tell doesn't need to be banned right now, although it certainly could hit that point in the future. It has not shown itself to be truly degenerate or format-warping with the current set of available cards.

Legacy would probably be a more interesting format if Show and Tell were banned simply because of how linear the decks revolving around it are and how/when you can interact with the strategies it enables. Getting rid of it would increase the portion of the format non-blue decks can occupy and force combo players to play decks that are simply more interesting to play as/against.

Should it be banned? Maybe. I'm currently in the camp that the format would be more interesting and diverse with it gone. Does it have to be banned? Nope. It just doesn't post enough results as of the moment and, at least for me, it's really difficult to think of a potential better Show and Tell target than Omniscience, Dream Halls, or Griselbrand that might be printed in the near future and necessitate banning it.

[catmint]

Powerful green creatures are not a problem for survival I think. GSZ also tutors them up for one green mana without the constraint of having one creature in your hand. I did not play mtg when survival was legal so i don't know all the "combos" and "interactions", but I agree that with surgical, deathrite, ooze and RIP, I don't see any GY synergy to threaten the format. I think this card should be legal.

To people complaining about show & tell again. I suppose we have to go through the same arguments over and over again.

1) Oppressiveness.
Show and tell is far away from oppressive. Check out tcdecks and SCG. The last time people "cough lejay cough" chose to believe they broke the format creating some stupid shitstorms of threads - nothing happened except for the format becoming more diverse by having 2 very different viable show & tell decks.

2) Casting Show & Tell "ends the game" like flash.
Show & Tell is symmetrical and the instant win requires 2 cards instead of 1 - hence not comparable to flash imo. All show & tell variants can be disrupted once show has been cast and lose more often than you think post show. If you don't believe it because your deck is not capable of doing that, play show and tell for a while and see how it works out for you.

3) "Games are boring". Everything pre-show is easy and post-show the game is over.
I've already talked about post-show. Pre-show there is a lot of magic to play involving mull, anticipating the opponents hand/disruption, developing right mana/protection - when to "go for it" or "playing around it",... Skill does matter and enough people find it exciting. Just because it does not involve creature combat, does not mean there is nothing is going on.

4)The format would be more diverse without show and tell.
Well this is very speculative and I doubt anyone can predict for sure what happens to a format given such a major banning. However if you look at the DTB the last couple of months the number of DTB decks is very high (like 10+) and there are tempo, control, midrange, show-combo, storm-combo, thalia,... and many other decks viable. Compare that to the past with Maverick, Stoneblade and Canadian as the only Tier1 decks BY FAR. I think strong combo decks attacking from different angles keep those super consistent "good stuff decks" in check which have a lot more potential of bringing the format to a boring stall. With show gone, storm as the only combo remaining to hate out, the best good-stuff decks can just take over. You won't be able to play naya or some non-blue pet deck once show is gone. Those decks will still lose the much stronger midrange decks.

The discussion has been more difficult in the past, like in a week where sneak took down opens or was #3 dtb, but right now with the format as diverse as it is and that many many months of different show variants viable and none of them NEVER beeing oppressive there is so much hard facts proving show is fine that I can only imagine people still asking for it to be banned just don't like the card.

[Dice_Box]

I do not think GSZ is a card you can compare to Survival. While GSZ does come back to you since you shuffle it and can redraw it, the ability to reuse Survival is what puts it into a category of its own.

While it may be safer to release it now that DRS is maindeck grave hate, I do not think it's safe enough.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Also, Someone needs to restart this thread. The Poll at the top of the page is YEARS old.

The entire point of leaving it up there is to show people who cry for cards to be banned how a little time fixes most problems in Legacy. Example, a lot of people here were gung-ho about banning S&T but it's not really making that big of a splash right now.

[GreekAsTheGods]

SnT, to me, just seems like a more overly efficient version of Sneak Attack, Dream Halls and Omniscience. And it's usually used in conjunction with those cards in Sneak and Tell, Omnitell etc. Would SnT ban really do much if other cards that do similar things are already run in those decks? Even Vengeance and Shallow Grave. There's quite a few ways to cheat Griz into play.... and I like that there's a deck named after a Sealab episode.

[Nihil Credo]

The entire point of leaving it up there is to show people who cry for cards to be banned how a little time fixes most problems in Legacy. Example, a lot of people here were gung-ho about banning S&T but it's not really making that big of a splash right now.

Yes, exactly. That was totally intentional. *whistles nonchalantly*


Ok, seriously: the reason this thread doesn't get restarted is because, unlike deck threads, it doesn't require a sufficiently recent OP as a resource for new readers. You could have a new poll every X months, but I believe this would only make the level of discussion worse, by injecting popularity arguments into what should be a debate based on knowledge of the format. (If you think the opposite is true, feel free to make your case.)

Now, the actual reason the 2009 poll is still there is because there is no "remove poll" button in the ordinary moderation options, and I thought it couldn't be removed at all. I only googled just now that the function does in fact exist, buried in a corner of the Admin control panel. But I think dontbiteitholmes actually did put up a reasonable case about the value of keeping it in place, as a reminder to not be too trigger-happy. Thoughts?

[HPB_Eggo]

I'd keep it. It's a pillar of the forum.