[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

Golgari Charm?

Likes to wipe the table with it.

[Lemnear]

Likes to wipe the table with it.

You can use it yourself for defense or try out crap like Ghostway

[Dice_Box]

Can you regen after your toughness has been made 0?

[Kayradis]

You can, but they still die!

[Zombie]

Can you regen after your toughness has been made 0?

Nope. A regeneration shield replaces the creature being destroyed by it being tapped, removed from combat and damage being removed from it. It says nothing about regenerating lost toughness points. Also, being Toughness 0 doesn't destroy a creature, it just gets moved to the GY.

[Zombie]

You can, but they still die!

Not after, you don't get priority between creature gets To 0 and creature gets binned

[Dice_Box]

Though so. So charm does not help me. I might try something tricksy like a buff instant or the Green FOW. Only need 4 critters to stay alive once I am hoofing. In all thought it's a meta choice I would rather not have to make.

Might just deal with the fact that one guy has an answer and start dealing with it if more answers start arising.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Lemnear]

You are obviously right. My bad

[Kayradis]

I think what can help us in the near future is the innability of opponent to understand all the triggers and abilities the creatures in the deck are capable of.
Yesterday, someone tried to bolt a visionary in response to the bounce, that I let resolve then casted Engineered Plage on elves while I have 2 x Symbiotes and 1 x Dryad in play.
Also, lot of people seems to have forgotten about Quirion. Im slowly thinking that she is "almost" better than birchlore half the time.
Both of those creatures are making our T2 extremely explosive with the right fuel in hand.

Could a 3/3 split between those be the right configuration?

[Dice_Box]

Symbiote's a cost right? You don't get a response from my understanding.

I run a 4/3 split in favour of Birchlore and agree Quirion has a hell of a power. She is stronger than most give her credit for. My issue with her is a bit like my issue with Llanowar, she has a strong but limited ability. While it's strong early, it tends to lose power as the game goes on.

But one thing I have seen is people not know what she does if you don't use her. Had a Goyf attack into a tapped hoof I cool untap and see the guy swear when I untapped it. So it has utility, but I feel it's utility lessens with each passing turn.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[MD.Ghost]

I think what can help us in the near future is the innability of opponent to understand all the triggers and abilities the creatures in the deck are capable of.
Yesterday, someone tried to bolt a visionary in response to the bounce, that I let resolve then casted Engineered Plage on elves while I have 2 x Symbiotes and 1 x Dryad in play.
Also, lot of people seems to have forgotten about Quirion. Im slowly thinking that she is "almost" better than birchlore half the time.
Both of those creatures are making our T2 extremely explosive with the right fuel in hand.

Could a 3/3 split between those be the right configuration?

I am also a quirion-supporter, but currently test the following configuration:
4 Bircholore (0 Llanowars)
3 Quirion
1 Arbor

Qurion is a good card, but i often sided out the 4th copy game 2 and 3, so i cut one for more explosive glimpse chains game 1. I am still undecided which build is better (compareable to 3 Bircholore, 4 ranger oder 2 bircholore, 1 llanowar, 1 quirion) - Most of the time i think, it doesn´t matter. You will win and lose games with each configuration and think "if i have card x..."

[Koby]

Symbiote's a cost right? You don't get a response from my understanding.

Yes, returning the Elf is part of the cost and cannot be responded to. The only target is what gets untapped; not the creature you return.

I run a 4/3 split in favour of Birchlore and agree Quirion has a hell of a power. She is stronger than most give her credit for. My issue with her is a bit like my issue with Llanowar, she has a strong but limited ability. While it's strong early, it tends to lose power as the game goes on.

I disagree vehemently here. Quirion Ranger is very powerful in the mid-late game. Between untapping DRS and reusing Dryad Arbor to fog attackers, I'd say that Quirion Ranger has more benefit than Birchlore Rangers.

But one thing I have seen is people not know what she does if you don't use her. Had a Goyf attack into a tapped hoof I cool untap and see the guy swear when I untapped it. So it has utility, but I feel it's utility lessens with each passing turn.

Again, and just like Symbiote, you can her her ability _EVERY_ turn, not just yours. This does make attacking into a small team unfavorable. This isn't to be discounted against decks with equipment. You will often win games where combat step is the only interaction an opponent has.

My current configuration is:
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves

Everytime I draw Llanowar Elves in the opening hand I am happy to see it. Mid-game it's another 1/1 for , much like every other elf in the deck. You're likely going to be making mana with Birchlore or Heritage Druid at that point, and it continues to fuel Glimpse chains easily. SB plan against decks with sweepers for me usually means I cut: 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Heritage Druid, and a few other "high-commitment" chains that would feed badly into a sweeper.

[Dice_Box]

Again, and just like Symbiote, you can her her ability _EVERY_ turn

I know I can, the reason I did not use her in my turn was to bate an attack I could block. I did not want to use the ability less I give up my plan.

I think you and I value Birchlore differently. I remember saying in the old thread he was the one card I wanted more of. I stand by that. He is to me a godsend. I have him hit the table and start having fun. The greatest gift he offers is black when I need it or speed when I need it. People will instantly try and remove a Heritage but could not care less about Birchlore. Thats something I like to use to my advantage. Also Morph is useful sometimes.

[nudon]

If you guys want maximum explosiveness game 1, use 4 NO, 4 birchlore, 4 quirion, 18 lands (4 cradle, 1 arbor), and 0 utility. The only change I would make at the moment is cutting the 4th quirion for another fetch. For those playing viridian shaman MD, I'd argue it's not really necessary since NO (and gsz) beats chalice all day long. Also, please post questions regarding card interactions/rulings in the appropriate section instead of on this thread.

[Koby]

I know I can, the reason I did not use her in my turn was to bate an attack I could block. I did not want to use the ability less I give up my plan.

I think you and I value Birchlore differently. I remember saying in the old thread he was the one card I wanted more of. I stand by that. He is to me a godsend. I have him hit the table and start having fun. The greatest gift he offers is black when I need it or speed when I need it. People will instantly try and remove a Heritage but could not care less about Birchlore. Thats something I like to use to my advantage. Also Morph is useful sometimes.

I understand now. Everytime I have used it on my opponent's turn, they have been surprised you can it use in then.

As for Birchlore; no I don't value it the way that has been expounded on in the last few pages. I prefer it more in a Glimpse focused deck rather than a NO focused deck. I've had experience with him in the old Summoner's Pact variation of Combo Elves, and even then we quickly cut it down to 3 copies. Granted, that was a different deck due to the changes that RTR brought to the table (DRS and Hoof); but I still see him providing that same utility in Glimpse chains. I've rarely had issues generating a lot of mana with only 2 copies.

I'm going to need a better argument for Birchlore Rangers in NO builds than "he produces mana". Llanowar Elves does that too and unconditionally.

[nudon]

I'm going to need a better argument for Birchlore Rangers in NO builds than "he produces mana". Llanowar Elves does that too and unconditionally.

In addition to the explosive glimpse chains you mentioned, he's great with cradle on turn 2. The standard number of cradles is now 4. This in conjunction with birchlore increases the probability of a t2 NO. Here's a following example of something I did last week:

T1: fetch->forest->gsz->arbor
T2: arbor->glimpse (FoW), forest->quirion ranger, bounce forest->untap arbor, arbor->birchlore, tap quirion+birchlore for 1, cradle for 3, NO->prog

Granted, that it was a god-hand. Lastly, the morph ability is very useful to get around CB and chalice. You're probably not on the prog plan but it's very hard to beat.

[Koby]

In addition to the explosive glimpse chains you mentioned, he's great with cradle on turn 2. The standard number of cradles is now 4. This in conjunction with birchlore increases the probability of a t2 NO. Here's a following example of something I did last week:

T2: NO->prog

Speed and explosive Glimpse chains; and NO for Progenitus. Not what I call exactly fitting in the same sentence. This is at best a turn 4 kill.

[nudon]

Speed and explosive Glimpse chains; and NO for Progenitus. Not what I call exactly fitting in the same sentence. This is at best a turn 4 kill.

Sorry if I was unclear but the point was that we've increased the number of cradles in the deck, making birchlores a lot better for an explosive turn 2. Whether that composes of glimpse chain, gsz tutoring, or NO->hoof/regal/prog is dependent on the hand/player. The last prog comment was in regards to morph being fodder for NO to get past CB/chalice.

[Koby]

Yep, still unconvinced. Unless the deck is being streamlined for Glimpse, there's no point to run 4 Birchlore Rangers. You're cutting out elements that make the deck more well rounded in order to push this creature to its max; and I don't think that's worth doing in this (varied) metagame.

[nudon]

If you want more utility in the form of v. shaman/ooze/sliver, fair enough. However, I think birchlore helps push the fundamental combo turn closer to 2 while being a better top deck than llanowar. It also helps DRS generate mana the turn it comes down when RiP is in play and provides off color mana for sb cards.