[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

I'm not a big fan of boarding Abrupt Decays for Silences to battle Teeg/Thalia. Having two mana in that color-combination at hand is a premium Position. You can take the time to search for that mana against Counterbalance but not if creatures pressure your life. I rather prevent them from dropping the sorcery speed hate for a turn and win then.

Sol-Land into Chalice is a backbreaker. You'll might even consider boarding out the Moxen for Decays/Therapy/Chains

[davelin]

So in games 2&3, the amount of hate that I have started seeing is mind blowing. If the hate is counter magic from blue decks, Silence, X Swarm, and Cabal Therapy make quick work. Against decks like Maverick and such running creature hate, Abrupt Decay is king. Against the combo decks, we bring in the Cabal Therapy and go a little slower to be more consistent with the combo. Against hate bears, we take out Silence (bad against creature hate), and bring in Abrupt Decays and Chain of Vapor (for the combo turn against Thalia and friends).

What is the plan against decks like UB Tezzeret, that run a combination of Force of Will/Counterspells AND hate bear type cards like Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere? Taking out Silence is probably not a good choice since they probably run 3-4 Force. Cabal Therapy is only REALLY good with a Probe to see which piece of hate they have. Duress is probably best here for stopping it before it gets bad. But like, a turn one Chalice on One, into a Trinisphere.... don't think we can reasonably beat that against any kind of clock.

That UB Tezz matchup seems really poor unless we just go for it Turn 1 on the play before hate comes down, or if we see their hand and know we have a few turns to sculpt.

In my limited testing against this matchup, I haven't had too much problems. Especially compared to the more MUD-style of this type of deck with Metalworkers or Goblin Welders which can put pressure early. This deck isn't that fast, since it uses Chalice and therefore limits the number of low-casting cost spells it can use. Their main way of putting pressure on (in the form of Tezz) is a 4-cc spell (albeit they run accelerators). Yes sometimes they just have the nut-hand against you, but even a Chalice on zero or one can be dealt with if given enough time esp post-board.

[Kowitz]

I have a question about diminishing returns, after you cast it, does it shuffle in, or is it left as the only card in the GY?

[Lemnear]

I have a question about diminishing returns, after you cast it, does it shuffle in, or is it left as the only card in the GY?

It's not in the graveyard, but on the Stack while resolving so it goes into your graveyard afterwards.

That's a fundamental understanding of how the Stack works, dood

[oSeabass]

It's not in the graveyard, but on the Stack while resolving so it goes into your graveyard afterwards.
That's a fundamental understanding of how the Stack works, dood

The first few times I used this I did this wrong... it led to some crazy "plays" in some casual local Legacy games where I Diminishing Returns into Diminishing Returns and end up casting it like 2-3 times in a "combo" turn to keep spinning the wheel. Eventually it exiled everything I needed, but it was still fun to do even if it was wrong.

A judge friend quickly pointed out the next week that I was WAY wrong on the way this interaction (and the way spells resolve) work.

*Whoops*

[Kowitz]

That is what I thought, but some people were telling me otherwise. Thanks for the clarification!

[Lemnear]

That is what I thought, but some people were telling me otherwise. Thanks for the clarification!

You're welcome

[Bahamuth]

I'm thinking about adding a second Ad Nauseam again. My list would be the one in the first post -1 Wish +1 Ad Nauseam and -1 Sea +1 Fetch. I did some simulations of the amount of cards you draw from AdN, assuming all other cards are in your library.




This was done simulating 1mil Ad Nauseams for every total amount of life. Not sure if it's possible to derive anything from this data, but it's interesting nontheless.

[JPoJohnson]

I'm thinking about adding a second Ad Nauseam again. My list would be the one in the first post -1 Wish +1 Ad Nauseam and -1 Sea +1 Fetch. I did some simulations of the amount of cards you draw from AdN, assuming all other cards are in your library.




This was done simulating 1mil Ad Nauseams for every total amount of life. Not sure if it's possible to derive anything from this data, but it's interesting nontheless.

Maybe it's just the games I come across and how I play, but I would say I use Ad Nauseam as a storm engine less often than several of the others.

[Lemnear]

We had this kind of simulation somewhere long ago but aside from having double the chance to topdeck the card/have it in hand it only increases the average manacost in the deck while influencing how low you can go on Life with AN-flips.

I've done so much testing with 2 AN Maindeck that the increased Chance to naturally draw it pales compared to the flexibility of a second engine or EtW.

If you want to test it, don't cut a Wish 'cause this is our access to Grapeshot and Tendrils. Try running it in place of the EtW. That would at least not alter the average number of cards off AN. Play 20 games and see if you miss EtW or how many AN make it naturally into your hand. Discard-Heavy- & Tempo-decks are complicated without EtW.

[Bahamuth]

We had this kind of simulation somewhere long ago but aside from having double the chance to topdeck the card/have it in hand it only increases the average manacost in the deck while influencing how low you can go on Life with AN-flips.

Obviously the only reason to play the extra AdN is to naturally draw it. Drawing into AdN makes winning so much easier that it's worth considering.

I've done so much testing with 2 AN Maindeck that the increased Chance to naturally draw it pales compared to the flexibility of a second engine or EtW.

If you want to test it, don't cut a Wish 'cause this is our access to Grapeshot and Tendrils. Try running it in place of the EtW. That would at least not alter the average number of cards off AN. Play 20 games and see if you miss EtW or how many AN make it naturally into your hand. Discard-Heavy- & Tempo-decks are complicated without EtW.

I'm not cutting the EtW. I know how good the card is, I was playing it while everyone here was still on the mainboard ToA. I'm not cutting it. The results you see in that graph are with a deck that contains both an EtW and 2 AdN. The fact that BW is the access to ToA is not remotely enough reason to play 4 of them. I've been playing 3 for a long time and never had problems with it.

[Lemnear]

I may give it a spin. Sadly I didn't even have the Chance to test the -1 Mox +1 Fetch idea proposed lately

[Tom T]

Just won a 31-man tourney playing Shardless Bug 2x, Jund, Deathblade, Tezzerator and RUG Delver. A lot of awesome games, including one with 44 goblins as only option on 2 against RUG, PiF->Ad Nauseam(@6life)->Cantrips+IMS'->BW->Tendrills, winning through 3xFow+Pierce+Daze and 4x Grapeshot cast.

So I was wondering what you guys would do in this situation that took place today:

You're on the play against Shardless BUG. It's game 3 and you know he boarded in extra duress' and Liliana of the Veils.
Would you keep this hand?:

Gemstone Mine
Underground Sea
Underground Sea
City of Brass
Brainstorm
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual

I did and it went something like;
Play out all my lands and artifactmana. Eventually after some Hymn to Tourach's, Burning Wish for Diminishing returns with nothing floating (bad draws). Diminishing Returns finds a cantrip-loaded hand and some artifact mana. Two turns later I win through 11 mana->Tutor->Tutor->Wish->Tendrills for 18 and he is on 17.

~Tom

[Asthereal]

Hi Tom,
Did you get to use the singing Goblin token in the finals?
If you ever have the chance, you have GOT to get one from Bryant!

To answer your question:
If one of the lands were a fetch, I'd consider keeping it. But I would have shipped that hand. If Brainstorm finds you no awesomeness, or at least a way to shuffle, you just lose. I am curious though how the good players will respond to your question.

[Lemnear]

Shardless BUG sometimes doesn't even run FoW and that hand is pretty much immune to discard. It's a deck with no Real clock as well.

I'd keep it as well and just keep dropping lands (cast topdecked cantrips) unless he casts a discard-spell. In that case you use BS to hide your Biz, untap and proceed with Wish into PIF, DR, IT (into AN) or Infernal into AN, Wish (into DR) blahblah.

Congratz Tom

[oSeabass]

I may give it a spin. Sadly I didn't even have the Chance to test the -1 Mox +1 Fetch idea proposed lately

(I am running whatever list BC has been running at the SCG circuit for some time now)
I have been running the deck for a short time, but I have wanted to find spot for another shuffle effect. Brainstorm without a shuffle as your only out, is sad when you hit bricks. I have found that when I have Mox it is in one of three situations.

1. I just cast AN, and have a million cards in hard (I should be winning anyway) and Mox is a make more mana for more fun kill more card. Rarely is it used post AN to be able to keep digging with cantrips at a low life total.
2. I have no land but a bonkers hand that I don't mind getting rid of an extra cantrip to be more explosive, or just cast it for the free storm pitching nothing.
3. I have no LED to dump my hand, but an IT I want to cast, and Mox helps get rid of 2 cards to make 1 mana.

The shuffle effect seems great, and still doesn't lose life with AN. I have thought about adding another fetch (4 fetch, 3 duals) just didn't know what to cut for it. The MOX seems like a good cut. I'll test this change out tomorrow at my LGS's Wednesday Legacy tournament.

[Asthereal]

One of the Team Nijmegen guys from the Netherlands really likes this config:
-1 Wish, -1 Mox, +2 Fetch.
This works very nicely with your cantrips, but is of course less explosive (one less accellerator, one less business spell).
Of course if you want only one additional shuffle effect, you could try just one of these changes, instead of both.
You will have to figure out which works best for you. I have cut one Wish and have not really missed it much, but that's just me.

[oSeabass]

One of the Team Nijmegen guys from the Netherlands really likes this config:
-1 Wish, -1 Mox, +2 Fetch.
This works very nicely with your cantrips, but is of course less explosive (one less accellerator, one less business spell).
Of course if you want only one additional shuffle effect, you could try just one of these changes, instead of both.
You will have to figure out which works best for you. I have cut one Wish and have not really missed it much, but that's just me.

So they ran 5 fetch, 3 duals, 4 gemstone, 2 city? Just making sure I have the mana base correct (albeit it should be easy enough for me to remember)

[Asthereal]

So they ran 5 fetch, 3 duals, 4 gemstone, 2 city? Just making sure I have the mana base correct (albeit it should be easy enough for me to remember)

Yes exactly that.
Last Sunday three of them played Bryants list -1 Wish +1 Ad Nauseam, and I have only heard them talk about how they felt 12 lands wasn't enough. I haven't heard them at all about the second Ad Nauseam. Perhaps that didn't matter so much.

[oSeabass]

Yes exactly that.
Last Sunday three of them played Bryants list -1 Wish +1 Ad Nauseam, and I have only heard them talk about how they felt 12 lands wasn't enough. I haven't heard them at all about the second Ad Nauseam. Perhaps that didn't matter so much.

I kinda like the idea of the second AN. The only worry is having the AN from hell hitting EtW and AN (number 2) off the bat and going down to 11 life. I want the ability to draw into it, and with more shuffles for my cantrips I think it is probably decent. I'll have to try it and see how it works out.