[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

I do not touch Thalia in this deck. I do not always have the white needed to cast, I am never short on bodies anyway and Thalia is far simpler to remove than Thorn is since any burn spell does the deed. Also Thalia can not be played in multiples if you have them to stack the effect. I love her in Goblins, never thought about putting her in here.

[Kayradis]

Bumping to 3 x Thorn, 1 x Thalia.

I'll give her a try Tomorrow at our weekly legacy.

[Lemnear]

I still would not underestimate Thalia being a beater against certain decks like storm. With 4 Birchlores, 4 DRS and 10 Fetches plus a Savannah getting white mana is possible

[igri_is_a_bk]

Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

[Zombie]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

[Lemnear]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

If you don't opt for Ruric, cutting NO's and Hoofs isn't unreasonable. Overloading with Teeg, Thorn, Thalia and Therapies (the 4T's) while beating with 1/1's is imo a valid option

[Zombie]

Yeah but IIRC igri runs the three-fatty maindeck setup. Which means you have Ruric, in which case cutting NO is insane. If you don't have Ruric, then I agree cutting down on NO is reasonable.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I play two Hoofs in the mb for fatties. Against combo, most of my wins come from anemic beatdown. Teeg is my top priority, and so NO takes a back seat. That's why I've never been keen on Ruric Thar.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

No, it's not. That's the plan against blue decks with counterspells. Against other, faster combo the plan is to land some disruption because they should be faster than any of our "I win" cards.

[Lemnear]

My fellow friend piloting Elves against me also boarded out his 4 NO and both Hoofs to bring in the hate while beating with 1/1's ...

No, it's not. That's the plan against blue decks with counterspells. Against other, faster combo the plan is to land some disruption because they should be faster than any of our "I win" cards.

I agree with that

[Absolutflipz]

I'm not positive about the entire boarding plan but I would keep Progenitus in the side. Also Teeg shuts down Jace, Force, TERMINUS, and Entreat. He should always come in here, and I'm pretty sure you want Thalia too. Maybe bring her over Decay if you're on the play? Or if you know they're not running CB? I think CB is only scary if they can land it on turn 2, and if they do, we still have NO/GSZ/Pridemage as potential outs.

I've thought about Thalia/Thorns, but the game goes pretty long and Thalia/Thorns also slow down any chance you have of getting an early glimpse or NO off to steal a game.

I'm also torn on bringing in Teeg, as one of your best ways to win and get around CB is resolving a NO.

Also, if you're bringing in Thalia/Thorns and Teeg -- what else are you taking out from what I already had?

I also agree with taking out the NOs against Storm. Too slow and you're bringin in Thorns/Thalia. I leave in one Hoof cuz Cradle is safe in this matchup and it's not unreasonable to land a Hoof after some early disruption to close it out quickly.

[Absolutflipz]

I do not touch Thalia in this deck. I do not always have the white needed to cast, I am never short on bodies anyway and Thalia is far simpler to remove than Thorn is since any burn spell does the deed. Also Thalia can not be played in multiples if you have them to stack the effect. I love her in Goblins, never thought about putting her in here.

Re: Thalia --Why not? Surely, you're playing as many fetches here in Elves as in your Goblins list, if not more in Elves (should be 9 or 10, imo). Fetches being equivalent to white sources, here.

She's good in Elves for the same reason she's good in Goblins and the same reason Thorns of Amethyst is good.

It's a Thorn effect that's a beater. She's very good as the 3rd Thorn effect in the board after 2x Thorns because while Thalia may be "easier" to get rid of, decks she's really good against are mainly looking for cards like Chain of Vapor which answer Thalia and Thorns the same. There are other removal spells that can hit her, but not Thorns....but they're not that many (Firestorm from Dredge being the only one that comes to mind now) and Thalia does have a benefit to thorns....she gives you a clock while disrupting your opponent so they dont have more turns to get out of it.

Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

How has your RUG plan that leaves in Natural Order against the Daze/Spell Pierce deck worked out? I could see leaving 1-2 since the games go long and you could probably resolve a mid-late game NO for Hoof/Progen, but I don't think I'd want the full 3-4 (whatever full amount your main has) after board against Daze/Pierce, Bolts and Rough/Tumble.

I have been trying Thorns/Thalia against RUG since they run off so few lands and the entire deck relies on noncreature spells. It sounds great, but I'm not positive it's correct after playing actual matches. Maybe Thorns, but no Thalia?

[Alexeezay]

@flipz: I think Thorns vs RUG are not a good idea, because the matchup is too fast for thorns, in my experience. By the time you played a Thalia/Thorn, They already got attackers(Delver/Goyf) or just counter(Daze) your Thorn effect.
Besides, playing a Thorn slows you down a Turn & makes NO,GSZ & Glimpse more expensive which is especially rough against RUG.

I agree that even post-board you need 1 Dryad Arbor. I could maybe see boarding Arbors out vs Aggro Loam, I've done that in the past. But it's probably wrong because of the NO Plan in that matchup (nowadays)

[igri_is_a_bk]

RUG is going to Daze or Spell Pierce the first thing you offer up. And it makes sense from their side to do so. So obviously you don't walk NO in to those spells if you haven't tested the waters first. Even GSZ with x=1 is really bad for them unless they already have Delver, so you should be able to resolve either Glimpse to pull too far ahead, NO to win, or GSZ for Symbiote tricks.

The only really scary hands out of RUG consist of two Delvers imo.

Edit: one more thing I thought to mention. During any game one against RUG, Goyf will never be bigger than a 4/5. Between both decks, only land, creature, instant, and sorcery type spells exist. So if you're ever figuring out the worst case scenario math, you can count on goyf never exceeding that p/t.

[Koby]

The whole idea between splitting Thalia/Thorns count is so that you can cast additional Thorn effects without being affected by the Thorn effect. Does that make sense?

If you're running 4 Thorns and have three in your hand; the first will cost , the 2nd one will cost , and the third will cost .
If you're running Thorns and Thalia and have 2 Thorns + Thalia in hand, the first will cost , the second will cost , then Thalia will still cost and resist spells by an additional .

I grant you that it's playing for the long game, but it has occurred against decks not prepared to fight artifacts. That extra mana could be the difference between fighting a Jace coming down at 5 but not 6 mana.

[Absolutflipz]

The whole idea between splitting Thalia/Thorns count is so that you can cast additional Thorn effects without being affected by the Thorn effect. Does that make sense?

If you're running 4 Thorns and have three in your hand; the first will cost , the 2nd one will cost , and the third will cost .
If you're running Thorns and Thalia and have 2 Thorns + Thalia in hand, the first will cost , the second will cost , then Thalia will still cost and resist spells by an additional .

I grant you that it's playing for the long game, but it has occurred against decks not prepared to fight artifacts. That extra mana could be the difference between fighting a Jace coming down at 5 but not 6 mana.

Thalia does "play well" with a Thorns, but this seems quite minor as compared to her being a 2-power beater.

Thorns/Thalia is a 3-of (most of the time) and you're not very likely to draw two of them in close succession, in which you draw the Thorns first so as to play the Thalia second for the same 2mana cost.

It is a nice interaction and further reason for the 2/1 split, tho.

[Koby]

Thalia does "play well" with a Thorns, but this seems quite minor as compared to her being a 2-power beater.

Thorns/Thalia is a 3-of (most of the time) and you're not very likely to draw two of them in close succession, in which you draw the Thorns first so as to play the Thalia second for the same 2mana cost.

It is a nice interaction and further reason for the 2/1 split, tho.

That was my original reasons for doing so actually. It came up in a game against BUG-Landstill, one in which I was being Wastelanded out of non-basics. That left me with about 3 Forests (eh.. it was a while ago before DRS) in play and not enough to cast the 3rd Thorns (and the game went very long). Anyways, I don't think we're short on creatures against the control matchups, where Thalia does become a liability (easier to remove). Again, a lot of things have changed (Abrupt Decay), so there's reason to re-evaluate Thalia/Thorns mix if needed.

The pros and cons of Thalia seem to balance out equally, so I don't think there's a need to eliminate her from the SB plan.

[nudon]

Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

My sideboard is very similar with 2 small differences: -1 thalia, -1 ooze, +1 thorn, +1 viridian shaman (none in md). I tried Ruric Thar against TES in the recent Deals tourney and found him very underwhelming. He's only good for t2 NO on the play, which rarely happens when you're playing cabal therapy and thorns as well. Here's how I would board.

Jund: -2 heritage, -2 quirion, -1 hoof, +2 decay, +1 ooze, +1 shaman, +1 prog
RUG: -3 NO, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze
UWR: -4 NO, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 shaman
OmniTell: -4 visionary, -1 hoof, +3 thorn, +1 teeg, +1 sliver
Merfolk: -2 heritage, -1 NO, +2 decay, +1 ooze
ANT: -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof, +4 therapy, +3 thorn, +1 teeg

The plan is similar with the biggest difference being that I take out NO against aggro-control blue decks.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The plan is similar with the biggest difference being that I take out NO against aggro-control blue decks.

Okay, but what's your rationale? Counterspells hit a lot harder when you have fewer threats in your deck.

[Lemnear]

Hmmm, I once added the 4th NO to overload on threats against counters ... it's strange that you now want to board it out against counters :/