Did it seem effective?
Been using Todd's list for our casual weekly Legacy tournaments and I must say it is strong but it has like a 50/50 matchup against RUG and Patriot. So far whoever goes 1st wins, Patriot has been a harder match up as they run so much removal against us. It is really hard to stick a threat and they have Geist which when in play cannot be answered. Darkblast is also a very strong card against this deck, killing everything we can put down not to mention Engineered Plague!
Tried the list yesterday at our national championship, because I wanted to play Pyromancer and somehow missed the opportunity to test.
Matchups were UWr Miracles (win), Dark Maverick (loss), Sneak Attack (win), RUGby (loss) & DnT (win)
Against Maverick I had to mulligan to four in Game 1 and got crushed by three GSZ and three Knights. Game 2 (mull to 6) was close, but I drew into lands and faced spells...
Somehow I always end up on the draw against RUGby (blabla bUrg), which is pretty unbeatable if you face a good starting hand (7). I take home Game 2, but Game 3 I get triple Stifle'd plus Wastelanded. Yeah, fun games.
The list is okay, but Wasteland results is some awkward situations and hands, where you curse it for not being a colored source. 18 lands is also pretty risky, as you want to be able to use Snapcaster Mage and put Pyromancer into play in addition to casting spells. Maybe I continue tinkering with the list, but I feel like my traditional UR lists are still more consistent.
I try a lot of solutions with a wasteland...
For me a better solution is
3 waste for a 18 land
4 waste for a 20 land
Anyway i prefer PoP because is synergic with a pyro, lavamcer and snapcaster. Waste is synergic only with a lavamancer... For mana denial i preferer a stifle
Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.
So yeah even though I really do like my recent change to a more U/R Burn type deck like I posted before, I have to say that this creature is pretty damn good.
I think it's totally worth adjusting U/R delver to complement this creature as much as it can.. So how do you guys think this creature can best be utilized? I'm thinking about something like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Demonheart Chimera
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
You want to run as much instants and sorceries for all 3 creatures so that really makes me like Gitaxian Probe in this deck.
Just like Canadian Thresh you'll only need one maybe two lands in your opener to function. The Brainstorms, Ponders and Probe's will make you hit your land drops so I think it's safe to up the Chimera count to 4. We're also a 2 color deck so we can't get color screwed from waste.Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.
Thoughts?
I've said it before, I really think that if you're going to run a lot of non basics and not run price of progress, you should just play RUG.
In my meta, I like being able to play a list with 3 basic islands and 3 basic mountains. I'm sure its meta dependant, but if I have a price of progress and a counter in my hand on turn 4, I'm winning that game.
I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster.
I've been running a list with lot of basics (6 like you) for a long time, but with testing, I feel like it's overdoing it. Sometimes you're screwing yourself opening with a mountain and not having daze active. I now run 2 island 2 mountain 10 fetches and 4 volcanic and it's really smooth (with 2 pop main).Originally Posted by Angelteg
Six basics are just overload. Basics shouldn't be there to make yourself PoP-proof (it happens really rarely, because you should be ahead in the damage race anyway), but to be able to cast things despite playing against Wasteland.
Running a list with 18 lands (4 of which are Wastelands), Pyromancer/Snapcaster and a 3-drop is the best way to ensure you lose to mana-screw.
I agree with the Basic land part. Running basics means Wasteland has less targets so you can play spells regardless. I can see cutting down a volcanic in favor of an Island to ensure having the option of going full basics if needed, but having six basics is just pure overkill. A deck like I posted earlier is fine with opening with an island or fetching for one as long as you can ensure you find a fetch for a mountain and it doesn't get stifled.
I don't think running a deck with 18 lands, 4 or which are Wastelands, with a creaturebase with pyromancer and a 3 drop(snap is a 3 drop, which therefore I would never run alongside the Chimera) will ensure getting mana screwed. Like I said. 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 4 probes. A lot of thresh decks play the same mana base and sure their creatures are a bit cheaper but they do run 3 colors so it's a lot easier to keep them off a color. Besides you also run stifle in this list as well which can protect your lands against Wasteland.
I would much rather say that this deck might give some (occasional?) mana problems but I don't think it will ensure it at all. I mean simply look at the Eric Rills Grixis deck of two weeks ago. He pulled it off with the same mana base and the only thing we do differently is run 4 creatures with a cmc of 3 instead of 2. It might screw us over or it might give no problem at all seeing how we run basics and are a 2 color deck(I know Rill ran bob so he had more draw than this deck would have but still). There is always the possibility of running a single extra land like the UWR decks did to not get in trouble playing Mystic's and Geists/Clique's.
In my opinion, a card that is in Lightning range and that doesn't have haste is not worth a spot in these lists. I may be wrong, but if it was flying + haste instead of flying + trample, I could think about it. For me, although it hits hard, it hits late, and there are already a lot of answers to it, specially if you give your opponent the chance to untap.
With the maindeck graveyard hate we see these days in the form of Deathrite Shaman, this Chimera doesn't fit into UR in Legacy.
A PRO doesn't draw, he tutors every turn.
JMLL
Thing is, all of our critters are in Bolt range and without haste (except GG) : Delver, YP, Grim, Snapcaster and Nivmagus, but they see play. This is why I don't think it's a valid argument against Demonheart Chimera. Also, Grim and Snapcaster are still ''core'' cards even in the face of Deathrite.dec, so I don't see why Demonheart would not be considered for this reason too, since Grim and Snapcaster are arguably weaker to Deathrite.
I like where you're going with this suite. They all have considerable presence and impact whether in the form of evasive beating, enter the battlefield goodness or being a token factory.
I wouldn't look at RUG and say "hey they can do it as well", because RUG can actually function with 1-2 lands consistently. You are already aware of the things which make those manabases work (cheaper creatures, CA machines), so you should know running Bob instead of Chimera is something completely different, as it costs "only" 2 AND provides a shitload of card-advantage.
Of course it might work well enough, but I don't think playing 3-drops with 18 lands in a Stifle/Wasteland format is that good, unless it's a resilient beast which provides a fast clock.
The difference is, that cards like Delver are cheaper and/or provide value despite eating removal. You don't as easily tap out for those creatures as you'd do for Chimera. So yeah, it IS a valid argument.
Grim isn't exactly shut down or significantly crippled by Deathrite Shaman, as you take any two cards in your graveyard as part of the activation costs. Snapcaster is still a 2/1 body and can be cast in response to a Shaman activation.
Also don't forget Rest in Peace is a card. One of the advantages of UR over RUG is it's 'kinda' resilience regarding GY hate. If you add Chimera, you are us vulnerable in that department, but also susceptible to targeted removal.
You are absolutely right :) It might make it in modern though :)
Actually it's not much different in Modern. Rest in Peace isn't as good there, but Deathrite Shaman, Lightning Bolt & Path to Exile are at an all-time high and UWr as well as UR decks cannot tap out on turn three for an unprotected threat. UWr Midrange has Geist and UR (Aggro-Control) would need the card to have Flash (which would be enough to make me insta-slam this flying Goat into some of my decks).
It's really a shame. I guess only Standard will show the appropriate love for this card. Anyway, I will still try to get some games going with it. ;)
+1
That is what I was trying to point out, not clearly enough it seems :) Thanks
A PRO doesn't draw, he tutors every turn.
JMLL
Brought this at a small tournament in Montreal :
UR Delver by Claudio Zulro
Creatures [15]
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer
Instants [18]
2 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [9]
2 Ponder
3 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
Lands [18]
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
3 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Sulfur Elemental
Only 10 people showed up, so three rounds it was. Got paired up against Welder+Forgemaster MUD for the first match (Lost 2-1). I win first game on the back of Delver and YP stalling the board. Sided in 2 Smash and 2 FoW for 4 Flusterstorm. Game 2, I had to mull twice, searching some outs to Chalice, to finally keep a bad five, without hate. I felt behind early and never could come on top, he had all the bombs against me. I sided again 2 Probe for FoW and PoP (A mistake. Should have took 2 Daze out instead.) Game 3 was a closer game but he eventually draws Cavern of Souls and plays Lodestone Golem off it. I lose soon after, without seeing any bolt.
Second pairing was against UG Madness (budget list, won 2-0). G1, he struggled to find a green mana source while I was amassing an army (I thought at this point that I was against budget MUC). He finally draws a forest but it's too late. Sided in 2 PoP for 2 Pyroblast. G2, he has an early Wild Mongrel that I try to Chain on my turn, making him discards 2 cards and growing Nivmagus, but he plays Unsummon in response. Too bad for him, I have a Flusterstorm in hand. He blocks a giant Nivmagus with Mongrel, leaving him without board presence. He slows me a little with Aether Burst on his turn, but I choose to replay Nivmagus and a YP that I drew on mine. He can't handle them and lose.
Last round was against Elves (modern version, won 2-0). He has no outs vs bolts+grim (played on my first turn in both games) and I have the forces g2 (sided in 2 forces for 2 PoP) at the right time when he tries to do anything close to "broken". I made top 3 with 6 points, but prizes were given to top 2 only. I strongly suggest running YP but I'm still unsure about Nivmagus... he's great when you can spare some cards or play around stuff but sometimes he does nothing for turns and end up being just a 1/2. Also, the dis-synergy with Grim can be problematic when you need a full graveyard.
Last edited by Heresy; 09-13-2013 at 10:03 PM.
Hi guys,
First time posting in this thread. I have been messing around with the idea of a U/R fish style deck. Here is my list.
Artifacts:
Aether Vial x2
Creatures:
Delver of secrets x4
Grim Lavamancer x3
Snapcaster mage x3
Voidmage prodigy x2
Younger Pyromancer x3
Enchantments:
Standstill x3
Instants:
Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Divert x1
Force of will x3
Lightning bolt x4
Price of progress x2
Soceries:
Chain lightning x1
Ponder x4
Lands:
Arid mesa x3
Island x4
Misty rainforest x1
Mountain x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Volcanic Island x2
SB:
Dismember x2
Flusterstorm x1
Force of Will x1
Price of progress x2
Pyroblast x1
Red Elemental Blast x1
Smash to smithereens x2
Submerge x2
Surgical extraction x3
So far it has played well in play testing. Chalice for 1 absolutely wreaks me though so I have to really careful and play around it. Has anyone else tried standstill/aether vial in a deck like this? I'd love to hear your thoughts!
I can tell you having 2 vials is not the way to go.
Do you guys seem like you are losing when you are running out of fuel?
I'm trying to play the burn version with 4 chains 4 bolts and 2 price. However, I'm finding it difficult ot end the game when the other player stabilizes. Dealing with batterskull and jitte has been a pain for me too.
The young pyro's have been too slow for me. I'm not playing the version with the probes, stifles and wastelands.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
