All B/R update speculation.

[kingsey]

This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.

Exactly. Great post.

[Lemnear]

This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.

Storm ist preventing you from playing spells at all and the Turn 1 kill-ratio is rather laughable compared to having playsets of Chalice, Lodestone, Thorn, Sphere, Phyrexian Metamorph, Wasteland, paired with singletons like Trinisphere and Strip Mine.

@Drago
DRS is too slow to inferact with Dredge, but RIP made it into the Sideboards of Bomberman ... it's not that RIP offers MUCH more than Leyline of the Void, Dryad Militant or Jixlid Jailer did before :/

@Kingsey
Go crying elsewhere ... if you refuse to play counterspells (blue), discard (black) or permament based hate (mostly white and artifacts) or goodies in red like REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc. you simply lose to combo, period.

It's sad that you are unable to get the difference between a) having to choosing ways of disrupting storm based on your colors and sometimes loosing to a turn 1 kill with your turn 2 hate in hand or b) not being able to cast ANY SPELL THE ENTIRE GAME regardless of any of your previous decisions

[bjholmes3]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

I'm not prejudging ... I played Vintage non-stop since 2005 and stopped it last year, because Dredge and Workshop warped the format so much that even Vintage-enthusiasts like Stephen Menendian want the DCI to take actions.

I don't even want to talk in-depth about what was happend to my previous Vintage meta after all the semi- & Unpowered players got crushed by Shop & Bazaar week after week, ending up quitting or getting Bazaar themselves. The claim with 50% Shop and Dredge in my previous meta was no hyperbole. I think, and dare to estimate that others share my point of view, that the current Vintage metagame is as boring and stagnant as it was never before.

Take the results of the Grand tournaments during the last 4 years into account, the numbers tell clearly that Shop & Dredge have extraordinary High placings compared to the total number in the field ... The additional $ so shell out for 4 Workshops/Wastelands could be a reason that it's not more prominent in some areas. Bazaar mimics the issue for the unpowered-crowd. Have you ever seen that a non-dredge-deck won the price for "best unpowered deck" at Bazaar of Moxen? I don't

I doubt that Legacy has the aura of a "diceroll" or "Turn1" format among Standard players and for a long time it was an absurd idea for Vintage too, but being on the draw against Shop and Dredge got me thinking 2 years ago...

[Tylert]

I doubt that Legacy has the aura of a "diceroll" or "Turn1" format among Standard players and for a long time it was an absurd idea for Vintage too, but being on the draw against Shop and Dredge got me thinking 2 years ago...

I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

Except that Thresh gives you an opportunity to play your spells and in fact is not really powerful, it's just consistent and all-around good. Even in the worst case scenario (like Stifle + 2x Wasteland) the opponent had some chance to play anything and with a proper decission he'd maybe could fight back.
Otoh, turn1 resistor/Trini/Chalice followed by other lock(s) on turn2 and further on, may easily lead to a game where the Shops' opponent doesn't play a card and in fact never had a chance to play any.

Not a luring format, says a guy who never played it...

I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.

Ok, but was he in a Legacy tournament yet? Even as a mere spectator. He would see there's not much to fear...

[Lemnear]

I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.

"One guy is not a trend", aside that's exactly the point I adressed before: play discard, counter, REB, taxing effects or swallow up defeat.

There are more than enough answers in the format ... I would show him the ways to interact with those "unfair" decks or make him trying to pilot such combo decks himself or watch a tournament: the fun isn't within the combo but the struggle to get it going

[menace13]

Dredge and Shop...

I agree.

Only I think Shops is more polarizing than Dredge is. Certain cards can beat Dredge like, with Leylines. Dredge having one way to win. Narco beatdown being the oh fuk scramble to try and not lose here option. There really isn't a card that stops shop and keeps it down that comes out turn 0 on the draw. Not to make Dredge seem trivial either. Dredge can still win despite 7 card sideboard slots. Because you need a very specific mix of mulling to Leyline, having clock, mana, and way to stop Claim/Chain/Wispmare. While they have few to no Therapies, mana, or answers for it.

[John Cox]

I agree.

Only I think Shops is more polarizing than Dredge is. Certain cards can beat Dredge like, with Leylines. Dredge having one way to win. Narco beatdown being the oh fuk scramble to try and not lose here option. There really isn't a card that stops shop and keeps it down that comes out turn 0 on the draw. Not to make Dredge seem trivial either. Dredge can still win despite 7 card sideboard slots. Because you need a very specific mix of mulling to Leyline, having clock, mana, and way to stop Claim/Chain/Wispmare. While they have few to no Therapies, mana, or answers for it.

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

[HammafistRoob]

So your argument is there aren't good answers to artifacts? Lodestone isn't anywhere near as back breaking as you're making it out to be. There are combo decks in that format too, and no, we aren't "crying", simply stating facts. You hate games that aren't interactive yet you play storm. You said it yourself if they don't pack discard, counters, or some kind of resistor they deserve to lose, I agree. In vintage if you fail to bring answers to Shops and Dredge you deserve to lose as well. Sure they can get the nuts hand and ignore whatever you do, but can't that happen in legacy too?

[YamiJoey]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

It helps that it's the coolest deck in the format, IMO. ;)

@Tylert: I started in Legacy by building Budget Bob decks that packed way too much discard. The idea was "Don't lose to unfair decks. Deal with everything else the hard way.". I had a boat load of fun, and it was always great to face down a Storm player and make T1 Hymn into T2 Liliana or something stupid and eaqually degenerate. The deck was inherently bad, but it showed me how to find a balance between beating Show and Tell and not dying to Jund. It was also quite cheap, but mostly because I was able to borrow my duals. (And still do a year on. *shame*)

[Lemnear]

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

Yes, exactly the reason why Vintage storm-combo runs Oath of Druids: to have a chance against Workshop

So your argument is there aren't good answers to artifacts? Lodestone isn't anywhere near as back breaking as you're making it out to be. There are combo decks in that format too, and no, we aren't "crying", simply stating facts. You hate games that aren't interactive yet you play storm. You said it yourself if they don't pack discard, counters, or some kind of resistor they deserve to lose, I agree. In vintage if you fail to bring answers to Shops and Dredge you deserve to lose as well. Sure they can get the nuts hand and ignore whatever you do, but can't that happen in legacy too?

There's a whole article Series written by Brian DeMars in the Web with the topic "on the draw against Workshop"; read how bad it is from another (well known) players perspective. It doesn't Matter if there are "good answers to artifacts" if you never have the mana to play them though Wasteland and resistors or they get simply countered by Chalice of the Void!

As stated above: Vintage storm runs Oath + Griselbrand because Artifact hate won't do it alone against Shops. Not even Nature's Claim is good enough to handle the Brown Menace.

Funny hitting me on Storm while I play Elves and Miracles as well, but lemme tell you that the primer gives me a thrill of being the possibly most skill- and math-intense deck in the format, despite of the challenge to not stumble over your own feets, opponents can interact in several ways with it, like I always presented.

Vintage Shop however often boils down to a single question: "Do you have FoW against my T1 Lockpiece?" ... Often followed by "Do you have enough mana to overcome my manadenial while I play only lands that produce 2+ mana?". There is no Chance to ever Fight back on the draw without FoW because of the redundant nature of Workshop decks. Workshop has more than 4 playsets of resistors and manadenial in it's 60 ... stop comparing it to Storms 4 Dark Rituals (EDIT: not to mention one is an instant that adds +2 mana once in your Pool and the other is a land for +3 you can use EVERY TURN)

In essence: there's still no hate existing that proper handles Workshop decks on the draw and unless you are a blazing fast combo deck there's no way you can win game 1 against Dredge while games 2-3 even remain a struggle even if you board in half your board you had to dedicate to that specific matchup

[HammafistRoob]

What? lol you're almost as good as Cavius sometimes.

[Tylert]

Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).

My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...

However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.

[Lemnear]

Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).

My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...

However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

[Tylert]

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

He'll learn that a diverse sideboard (Bounce / removal / counters) is the way to go... even if it is the hard way :)

[Lemnear]

He'll learn that a diverse sideboard (Bounce / removal / counters) is the way to go... even if it is the hard way :)

We just don't want him to be discouraged, sitting across a Xantid Swarm with a grip full of counters, thinking "fuck this shit! Stupid Format!"

[DragoFireheart]

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

Pongify

[menace13]

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

The thing with MUD is that it has reigned as the most placing deck in Vintage since October of 2010. Worldwake-Lodestone- was released February of that year, and Scars Mirrodin was October of that year.


So basically in 3 years It has shitted on the format as the most widely top 8'ing deck. Out of those 36~ months, it did not hold its 1st place spot in placings only a paltry 6 times(6 months).

Thirty fukn months as the best placing deck is grossly over placing. Legacy's RUG isn't even half as close to that number.

[DragoFireheart]

Thirty fukn months as the best placing deck is grossly over placing. Legacy's RUG isn't even half as close to that number.

Thank you. Hopefully people will stop claiming that Vintage is fine and healthy.