[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

Not being able to GSZ in your opening is not a big deal if you have a NO or a Glimpse. If you are totally out of those three choices I would have a long and hard thought about keeping that hand. I do not like to rely on Visionary do get the job done. If someone does not know the bounce trick, they learn it fast. Once they do they let the burn fly and you lose your drawing power. So I think the question is more about keeping the hand based on its win conditions, not if Birchlore is in it.

Really all Birchlore offers is a way to use summoning sick elves and another way to gain off colour mana. Outside of that, he is just another one drop that is often obsolete the moment Heritage hits the table. But if you compare Birchlore to Llanowar, Llanowar is a card you really want in your opener or to drop turn two but the ass drops out of his stock portfolio each turn after. Birchlore is the card that you do not card when you see it, but he is almost never as good as a turn one Llanowar. But Birchlore does offer a much better return on the draw.

Question. To those running Thar main. Do you run a second Hoof in the side?

[Zombie]

Nope. Ruric, Hoof main, Prog side.

[nudon]

Not being able to GSZ in your opening is not a big deal if you have a NO or a Glimpse. If you are totally out of those three choices I would have a long and hard thought about keeping that hand. I do not like to rely on Visionary do get the job done. If someone does not know the bounce trick, they learn it fast. Once they do they let the burn fly and you lose your drawing power. So I think the question is more about keeping the hand based on its win conditions, not if Birchlore is in it.

Really all Birchlore offers is a way to use summoning sick elves and another way to gain off colour mana. Outside of that, he is just another one drop that is often obsolete the moment Heritage hits the table. But if you compare Birchlore to Llanowar, Llanowar is a card you really want in your opener or to drop turn two but the ass drops out of his stock portfolio each turn after. Birchlore is the card that you do not card when you see it, but he is almost never as good as a turn one Llanowar. But Birchlore does offer a much better return on the draw.

Question. To those running Thar main. Do you run a second Hoof in the side?

The question was posed in regards to possibly reducing the birchlore count for a few llanowars to be more consistent on turn 2. Most of the commentary from advocates of 1-3 llanowar haven't tried the 4x birchlore build so I wanted perspective from Lemnear and others who have tested both. GSZ->teeg is a GAME WINNING play against storm. With symbiote in hand, gsz->visionary is a super important play. Not only does it cantrip, it forces the opponent to waste removal on visionary with symbiote on the stack. I think you're underestimating the power of 2-for-1ing someone. A lot of what you said in the second paragraph is common knowledge to all of us so there's really no need to restate.

I cut Thar from my sb recently but if you wanted to run him, there's no point of a second hoof in the side. For match-ups where you don't want Thar, Progenitus comes in.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Zombie :)

[Lemnear]

@people running the 4 birchlore speed build or elven mages who want to chime in: During my 8 rounds and eventual top 4 split a few weeks back, I generally didn't miss llanowar except when keeping a 1-lander with several visionaries in hand. Maybe it doesn't matter since I was able to grind out the match anyway but was just curious how often the following scenarios come up for you guys with turn 1 birchlore.

- 1 land and visionaries stuck in hand
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for visionary t2
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for gaddock teeg t2

The question was posed in regards to possibly reducing the birchlore count for a few llanowars to be more consistent on turn 2. Most of the commentary from advocates of 1-3 llanowar haven't tried the 4x birchlore build so I wanted perspective from Lemnear and others who have tested both. GSZ->teeg is a GAME WINNING play against storm. With symbiote in hand, gsz->visionary is a super important play. Not only does it cantrip, it forces the opponent to waste removal on visionary with symbiote on the stack. I think you're underestimating the power of 2-for-1ing someone. A lot of what you said in the second paragraph is common knowledge to all of us so there's really no need to restate.

I cut Thar from my sb recently but if you wanted to run him, there's no point of a second hoof in the side. For match-ups where you don't want Thar, Progenitus comes in.

I'm free to betray secrets here and want to mention that Turn 2 Teeg is NOT a game winning play against storm unless we're discussing ANT preboard. All storm iterations are well aware about Cannonist, Thalia, Teeg and DRS. I would not be surprised if we see more Pyroclasms postboard from storm.dec and I think it's questionable to keeps hands because of their access to Teeg or Visionary alone, rather than for their potential to Glimpse/NO/Discard/Thorn/Thalia in that particular matchup.

One step further, I question the inclusion of Teeg atm because most Combo decks can easily outplay him, especially postboard.

The 4 Birchlore builds can have problems if there's no other 1cc elf in your hand and you are on a single land unlike with Llanowar (regardless of the fact that I would mull such a hand anyways), but that was the fundamental reason to up the landcount to my known 19 (with 10 Fetches) months ago to reduce the chance of that ugly 1-landers happening.

To me, the 3 scenarios you asked about are minor issues, possibly resulting from questionable keeps. I do care a lot more about having multiple outs for Black/White mana in terms of SB disruption and DRS-machine-gun (relevant against RUG Delver & ANT). It's more backbreaking for combo to face a Thalia or Cannonist than Teeg because the Kithkin overlords only blocks the engine-cards but not the progress/filtering for an answer to the Legendary 2-drop and it's not like a 1-Lander with Llanowar is an automatic Keeper in a World of Daze, Wasteland, Lightning Bolt and ... urgh ... Forked Bolt! Not to forget the Karakas still in some ANT SB's and Maindeck-staple in Miracles/Blade-Variants.

Having only access to Black mana via 2 Bayous and the number of Fetches (which some peeps even reduce to run more basics, because they think that adresses Blood Moon! lol) is something to let sink in ... DRS is the reason this deck is Tier 1 atm and I don't think the development of the deck should lead us towards decreasing it's capacity by having less access to Black mana which is also required for the SB ... especially with the trend to run more discard than just the 4 Therapies (I still had no Chance to test with additional Thoughtseize).

The only advantages I see for Llanowars was already mentioned a few pages back in the thread: It creates more mana than Birchlore on paper (unless toolbox elves or summoning sick DRS join Birchlore) and is therefore an unconditional mana-accelerator unlike the B.Rangers and Llanowars are much better for rebuilding after a sweeper ... but afaik, being hit by a sweeper pretty much equals a loss regardless.


Edit: Forgive me my horrible grammer and typos, i'm at my way to work, switching Public transport

[Kayradis]

@kayradis: Isn't running 3 fatties (2 hoof + 1 thar) main deck a bit excessive? You greatly increase the risk of drawing one in your opening 7.

Ruric Thar is surprizingly easy to hardcast. 6 Mana is not hard to achieve with the deck on Turn 2/3 and shuts down lots of options your opponent might have at that point.

The second hoof is exactly for that scenario. You have one stuck in hand? NO for the other one. I wouldn't be surprise that someone in the near future NO for Hoof, swing then next turn Sac the Hoof to NO to go fetch the other one. If stuck in hand?
Cradle for X, Play cradle/sac cradle, tap for X, Hoof?

[Dice_Box]

Cradle for X, Play cradle/sac cradle, tap for X, Hoof?

This to me seems like a bit of a pipe dream. Yes it can be done, but how often are you liking cradles like that and not tapping elves for big mana? I don't often get anywhere near that lucky.

[Kayradis]

I'll package you some of my luck and send it for Xmas! :)

[nudon]

Ask and you shall receive. Thanks for the response!

I'm free to betray secrets here and want to mention that Turn 2 Teeg is NOT a game winning play against storm unless we're discussing ANT preboard.

I agree and should have better articulated that I meant teeg slows storm down when they don't have access to their outs (i.e. burning wish, CoV, etc.). You mentioned that the inclusion of the legendary kithkin is now questionable in your eyes. You don't think allowing your gsz's to complement the discard is worth 1 sb slot?

The 4 Birchlore builds can have problems if there's no other 1cc elf in your hand and you are on a single land unlike with Llanowar (regardless of the fact that I would mull such a hand anyways), but that was the fundamental reason to up the landcount to my known 19 (with 10 Fetches) months ago to reduce the chance of that ugly 1-landers happening.

I had been debating internally with increasing the land count from 18 to 19 as well. I guess I'll cut the 4th quirion ranger for another fetch as this should alleviate some of the strain of deciding whether to keep an opening 7 susceptible to a single wasteland/stifle.

Having only access to Black mana via 2 Bayous and the number of Fetches (which some peeps even reduce to run more basics, because they think that adresses Blood Moon! lol) is something to let sink in ... DRS is the reason this deck is Tier 1 atm and I don't think the development of the deck should lead us towards decreasing it's capacity by having less access to Black mana which is also required for the SB ... especially with the trend to run more discard than just the 4 Therapies (I still had no Chance to test with additional Thoughtseize).

Edit: Forgive me my horrible grammer and typos, i'm at my way to work, switching Public transport

I definitely agree that the notion of a second basic forest addressing blood moon is laughable. However, I think the second forest has merit in that it protects your turn 3 play. Being able to fetch a second basic turn 2 will guarantee that you can go off next turn. This is analogous to your previous example that 4 birchlore rangers guarantee a game-breaking turn 3.

In regards to the sb, thorn of amethyst is definitely a bomb against storm. However, is an opening 7 consisting of thorn but no discard worthy of keep on the draw? Your opponent will have 2 full turns before you can play your trump card. Does having access to glimpse in conjunction with thorns change anything?

No worries, I understood you just fine. :)

[Dice_Box]

Just wanting to clarify, when you say 19 land, do you count Dryad in that count?

[Lemnear]

Ask and you shall receive. Thanks for the response!

not a big deal :)

I agree and should have better articulated that I meant teeg slows storm down when they don't have access to their outs (i.e. burning wish, CoV, etc.). You mentioned that the inclusion of the legendary kithkin is now questionable in your eyes. You don't think allowing your gsz's to complement the discard is worth 1 sb slot?

Teeg is a GSZ target aka costing 3 mana. As you mention at the end of your post, 2 mana for a Thorn CAN be too slow against certain decks. I doubt a 3cc solution would turn the tide then. The point is that it does not slow down TES' Infernals, Wishes and cantrips at all to find a solution for him or even the whole field as Wish into Pyroclasm/Grapeshot isn't affected at all.

I had been debating internally with increasing the land count from 18 to 19 as well. I guess I'll cut the 4th quirion ranger for another fetch as this should alleviate some of the strain of deciding whether to keep an opening 7 susceptible to a single wasteland/stifle.

Despite being able to work with a single land, Elves should not do that and then scoop to a single Wasteland, Stifle, Lightning Bolt or Counter (targeting a mana dork).

I definitely agree that the notion of a second basic forest addressing blood moon is laughable. However, I think the second forest has merit in that it protects your turn 3 play. Being able to fetch a second basic turn 2 will guarantee that you can go off next turn. This is analogous to your previous example that 4 birchlore rangers guarantee a game-breaking turn 3.

It's only analoge so a certain degree imo. You might agree that the first land is tremendously more important to survive than the second. Wastelanding your second land is pretty much wayne after you untapped already with DRS or have already an elf in play to combo with Birchlore. It rarely bites my ass ;D

In regards to the sb, thorn of amethyst is definitely a bomb against storm. However, is an opening 7 consisting of thorn but no discard worthy of keep on the draw? Your opponent will have 2 full turns before you can play your trump card. Does having access to glimpse in conjunction with thorns change anything?

Glimpse and NO were my slots to board out previously. I leave the testing of Thoughtseizes instead of the resistors to others, because I'm buisy preparing my Miracles and TES for BoM

No worries, I understood you just fine. :)

Just wanting to clarify, when you say 19 land, do you count Dryad in that count?

Yes, 14 initial mana, 4 Cradles, 1 Arbor

[trevaftw]

@MD.Ghost : Ezuri > Archdruid. Same cost and has more usefull application. Pyroclasm? Overrun! Bolt? OVERRUN! Swords? Overrun! (I GAIN 5!)

alright.

he overruns.

Archdruid is a tutorable elf cradle as well.

[Lemnear]

Archdruid is a tutorable elf cradle as well.

A summoning sick elf cradle which even costs serious mana ... with all the Investment even the Legendary Theros Land appears reasonable lol

[nudon]

Glimpse and NO were my slots to board out previously. I leave the testing of Thoughtseizes instead of the resistors to others, because I'm buisy preparing my Miracles and TES for BoM

You board out the full play-sets of both glimpse and NO? I'm assuming you board in something along the lines of 4 therapy, 2 thorn, 1 thalia, and maybe 1 teeg. Doesn't this strategy make you over-reliant on drawing and resolving (get past their silence/discard) one of your sb cards in your opening 7? Moreover, without glimpse and NO, you're relying purely on turning guys sideways in order to get there. Isn't that too slow (especially on the draw)? I've seen players board out glimpse or NO but never both. I would think that visionary is a better card to cut than glimpse. Both igri and I have the same board strategy of +4 therapy, +3 thorn/thalia, +1 teeg, -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof. What do y'all think? Here's a list of common board strategies against storm:

1. Cut NO and visionaries and rely on glimpse/turn sideways ftw. See above.
2. Cut glimpse and visionaries and rely on NO->hoof/thar ftw.
3. Cut visionaries + symbiotes and rely on diluted glimpse/NO->hoof/thar ftw.

[Lemnear]

You board out the full play-sets of both glimpse and NO? I'm assuming you board in something along the lines of 4 therapy, 2 thorn, 1 thalia, and maybe 1 teeg. Doesn't this strategy make you over-reliant on drawing and resolving (get past their silence/discard) one of your sb cards in your opening 7? Moreover, without glimpse and NO, you're relying purely on turning guys sideways in order to get there. Isn't that too slow (especially on the draw)? I've seen players board out glimpse or NO but never both. I would think that visionary is a better card to cut than glimpse. Both igri and I have the same board strategy of +4 therapy, +3 thorn/thalia, +1 teeg, -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof. What do y'all think? Here's a list of common board strategies against storm:

1. Cut NO and visionaries and rely on glimpse/turn sideways ftw. See above.
2. Cut glimpse and visionaries and rely on NO->hoof/thar ftw.
3. Cut visionaries + symbiotes and rely on diluted glimpse/NO->hoof/thar ftw.

Just bad experience with havin resistors + Glimpse ... non-topic with more discard I guess

[trevaftw]

A summoning sick elf cradle which even costs serious mana ... with all the Investment even the Legendary Theros Land appears reasonable lol

Have you ever had games where you had Craterhoof, Progenitus, and Ruric thar in your hand? I have. It sucks. This gives you a way to get them out if you draw a GSZ/NO.

[Lemnear]

Have you ever had games where you had Craterhoof, Progenitus, and Ruric thar in your hand? I have. It sucks. This gives you a way to get them out if you draw a GSZ/NO.

No, never. Maybe because I don't run 3 NO targets at a time

[LeoCop 90]

Just a curiosity: is there any reason why the name of this deck is followed by an exclamation mark? ( Elves!)

[Julian23]

Always has been this way. The way I see it, it addresses the explosiveness of the deck; like someone shouting "OMG ELVES!!!" when 30 of them hit the table on turn2 or 3.

[danyul]

Just a curiosity: is there any reason why the name of this deck is followed by an exclamation mark? ( Elves!)

It also expresses some of the surprise people often felt when they saw an Elf tribal deck actually work in a competitive setting. Elf decks used to be the sign of a huge scrub and have always been a very popular tribal deck type for casual kitchen table players. Seeing one played in a serious tournament setting was once a very odd thing indeed.

[trevaftw]

No, never. Maybe because I don't run 3 NO targets at a time

So you're saying there's never been a time when you had all of your natural order targets in hand with no way to cast them?