[Primer] Elves!

[danyul]

Having all your NO targets in hand without a way to cast them should happen so incredibly infrequently that it isn't even worth planning an out for. Your out is just your entire deck, which is designed and tuned to make as much mana as quickly as possible.

In other news, I have cut all the White out of my 75 as a bit of an experiment. I'm gonna jam that at my locals and see how it runs.

[Dice_Box]

Other than Harmonic and Teeg, how much white is run these days?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

That's actually about it. The biggest reason for me to cut white was actually the manabase. I needed to streamline it a bit and the Savannah was cramping my style and needed to go. I thought about the matchups where I would bring in Teeg/Harmonic and decided that I could shore up those slots with other non-white alternatives and just go full Golgari. I haven't given this new configuration any serious testing yet so the verdict is still out.

[Dice_Box]

What alternative cards are you looking at? Since I moved Thar main I have been forced to cut a basic and add a Taiga, dropping back to 3 colours appeals to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Zombie]

Well, a 7 discard board worked for Reid Duke, can't see how discard + perhaps resistors type board wouldn't work for a Golgari deck. Cutting white is actually a pretty nice solution to the mana base issue. You can keep 2 Bayous, 2 Forests and a high fetch count. I like it quite a bit.

2 Birchlore, 4 DRS is enough for maindeck Thar, the Taiga is pretty much useless IMHO.

[danyul]

What alternative cards are you looking at? Since I moved Thar main I have been forced to cut a basic and add a Taiga, dropping back to 3 colours appeals to me.

I've maxed out on SB Abrupt Decay and have the 7 discard package. I might want to make the 4th Decay into something that can kill a Leyline/Humility, but those gamestates happen so rarely that I'd rather just leave it up to luck and hope not to see that stuff happen to me.

Well, a 7 discard board worked for Reid Duke, can't see how discard + perhaps resistors type board wouldn't work for a Golgari deck. Cutting white is actually a pretty nice solution to the mana base issue. You can keep 2 Bayous, 2 Forests and a high fetch count. I like it quite a bit.

Yeah the primary reason I wanted to cut the Savannah was that I have only been running 8 fetch and would like to eventually hit 10. Cutting white gets me to 9 with 2 basic lands, and for now that will have to do. I don't really like going below 2 basics.

[Dice_Box]

Forgot about Deathrite... You guys keep pushing me like this I might find myself with 10 fetches. I do that and I need another Windswept for the split.

Thar I want main. I know he can save me game two, but he can win game one. He is just too useful.

So are we looking at a 7 discard, 3 meek, 2/3 Decay, 1 NO target and then like 1/2 flex for the side? If so I vote at lest 1 enchantment hate main.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

LoL no need to vote. You just play whatever works for you in your meta. But the enchantment hate I was looking at was a choice between Golgari Charm, which also can be randomly brought in against Verdict/Pyroclasm as well as Empty the Warrens tokens, or Krosan Grip, which is less flexible but has split second.

[Dice_Box]

I would go with the charm. Most of the issues are handled just fine with Decay. I would seek something that offers a broader use than just hitting the stuff Decay can not.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Kayradis]

I'm not 100% behind cutting . It opens us to tons of SB options and I don't see 1 x Savannah being too much of a problem.

Also, I don't run any source for Ruric Thar, The Unbowed since he's over 90% of the time a GSZ/NO target and if the need arise to cast him, Birchlore Ranger and DRS can create .

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

We have our "Best" list but no meta will be the same.

In this quote from earlier in the post, Dice_Box was giving a thoughtful response to a somewhat heated discussion. As I was rereading it, I wondered whether we still think there is general consensus around a "Best" list and, if so, what would that list be? For instance, Reid Duke dropped Birchlore Rangers altogether and had some success. (Reviewing his games, it's not clear to me whether, if we replaced his three mana elves with Birchlores, we'd have ended up with a significantly different result. I haven't read his SCG article so he may have thoughts on this point.)

Strikes me that we can, with slight modifications, tilt our deck in various ways (none of which seem to fare well against UW CT miracles and the like; maybe wizards will bring some relief in the future). But each of those modifications will help us more or less in a given match up.

So, to conclude on my primary query, I do wonder if there is a "best" at this point?

[danyul]

I'm not 100% behind cutting . It opens us to tons of SB options and I don't see 1 x Savannah being too much of a problem.

It's just an experiment. For me, the "ton" of SB options was only two cards long so it wasn't a huge loss.

In this quote from earlier in the post, Dice_Box was giving a thoughtful response to a somewhat heated discussion. As I was rereading it, I wondered whether we still think there is general consensus around a "Best" list and, if so, what would that list be? For instance, Reid Duke dropped Birchlore Rangers altogether and had some success. (Reviewing his games, it's not clear to me whether, if we replaced his three mana elves with Birchlores, we'd have ended up with a significantly different result. I haven't read his SCG article so he may have thoughts on this point.)

Strikes me that we can, with slight modifications, tilt our deck in various ways (none of which seem to fare well against UW CT miracles and the like; maybe wizards will bring some relief in the future). But each of those modifications will help us more or less in a given match up.

So, to conclude on my primary query, I do wonder if there is a "best" at this point?

The "best deck" is whatever wins for you in your local meta. Reid Duke, The Guardian of Gaea, actually put a singleton Birchlore back into his revised list while also cutting entirely in order to go up to 2 basic lands.

[Julian23]

Where did you get that revised list? I assume the SCG article? We need it. Right now. Right here.

/edit:

Right here
Right now
Right here
Right now

[Kayradis]

Where did you get that revised list? I assume the SCG article? We need it. Right now. Right here.

+1

[danyul]

I'm not sure what the rules are IRT cut/pasting stuff from SCG Premium, so I'm going to err on the side of caution here.

I'll say that the only significant changes Reid made were cutting and adding Birchlore to the main. His original list only had Q.Pridemage as a SB card so he replaced that slot with Gleeful Sabotage.

That's about it, really.

[nudon]

So, to conclude on my primary query, I do wonder if there is a "best" at this point?

At this point, everyone has input on what the optimal MD should be. However, I agree with Daniel that if you're winning with a certain configuration, it's probably not going to make a big difference either way just as long as you're making the right play. The only discrepancies are caused by the last 5 cards anyways. Otherwise, most lists have the following 55 in common:

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetch
4 Gaea's Cradle

The last 5 cards are often a question of:
1. fetch #9 vs. basic forest #2
2. fetch #10 vs. cmc1 mana dork
3. dryad arbor #2 vs. cmc1 mana dork
4. birchlores #2-4 vs. llanowars #1-3
5. cmc1 mana dork vs. viridian shaman/ooze/other utility
6. cmc1 mana dork vs. NO #4

[nudon]

Some people have Ruric Thar too.

[trevaftw]

Having all your NO targets in hand without a way to cast them should happen so incredibly infrequently that it isn't even worth planning an out for. Your out is just your entire deck, which is designed and tuned to make as much mana as quickly as possible.

In other news, I have cut all the White out of my 75 as a bit of an experiment. I'm gonna jam that at my locals and see how it runs.

Archdruid also gives +1/+1 which is an additional defense against black decks with engineered plague and also a way to give additional protection against decks with forked bolt and pyrokinesis when you don't have mana for ezuri's regeneration. When I get all 4 cradles I'll see how necessary he still is but currently he works great in the deck.

WRT white I think that if you're running Ruric Thar than having a Savannah is unnecessary way of splitting your resources. Like you mentioned, most of the white targets are in the sideboard and tend to be GSZ targets. If you happen to draw one of them they are a lot easier to cast with DRS/Birchlore because their low cmc means you won't be as restricted in tapping. Compare this to if you happen to draw a Ruric thar and you don't have a taiga it may mean you might not be able to play it because you have to tap two elves with birchlore to make a red where as with the land you could 3 elves to make 3 green and you're halfway there to casting it. Savannah also leaves you open to massacre and (depending on how many fetchable lands you run) by removing it you could add a second basic to make fighting wasteland a lot easier.

[Kayradis]

You know what? Let's all be friend again. Let's play G/W Mirror Entity build! :D

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

At this point, everyone has input on what the optimal MD should be. However, I agree with Daniel that if you're winning with a certain configuration, it's probably not going to make a big difference either way just as long as you're making the right play. The only discrepancies are caused by the last 5 cards anyways. Otherwise, most lists have the following 55 in common:

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetch
4 Gaea's Cradle

The last 5 cards are often a question of:
1. fetch #9 vs. basic forest #2
2. fetch #10 vs. cmc1 mana dork
3. dryad arbor #2 vs. cmc1 mana dork
4. birchlores #2-4 vs. llanowars #1-3
5. cmc1 mana dork vs. viridian shaman/ooze/other utility
6. cmc1 mana dork vs. NO #4

This is a nice summary. Thanks.

I suspect things will likely slow down on this thread, as Theros gives us little to improve the deck. I suppose Wizards may be on to us and not want to do much for us. That said, maybe WoTC will print up:

Elven Agnostic G
Elf Druid
Elven Agnostic cannot be countered.
Spells cannot be cast for their Miracle cost.
Return two green creatures you control to their owner's hand: counter target activated ability.
1/1
Everything has an explanation, even in a magical world.