So...if Omni is a bad matchup, why isn't the sideboard able to reflect that? I agree that it probably is, but I see nothing that strictly helps out this matchup in sideboards. No one seems to run any blue disruption (Flusterstorm, Swan Song; Flusterstorm is good against it, Swan Song hits Enter the Infinite, Dream Halls, Sneak Attack, Omniscience), which helps. Yeah, they have more CSpells, but in conjunction with Silence and discard as well as being able to know what is in their hand and therefore know what to counter/discard, it should help a bit. Just my two cents.
Heck, Seal of Cleansing is probably an option.
-ABC
You can't really run counter spells in a deck based on lion's eye diamond.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Why not? You aren't going to use them for protection, you are going to use them for disruption. You have better cards for protection. I listed them above. At the point of combo, you are not going to need to use them, you have other options, discard/silence/chant/swarm. I meant for a sb option to help keep yourself alive until you can in fact combo.
-ABC
If you'll still need discard/silence/chant/swarm/etc. to protect your combo (due to the bad interaction with Lion's Eye Diamond), what are you taking out of your deck to put in cards like Swan Song and Flusterstorm that will function solely as disruption?
Sideboard however you want. I'm not an expert, I'm just saying that if SnT is a problem, there are solid answers that can be played, imo. They aren't bad (Swan Song answers CB as well), just slightly inconvenient. It's not like you are trying to hold a force of will to stop their counters, you have other things for that. These are answers for a certain matchup, or a certain few matchups. Probably close to sideboarding for whatever you side in AD's for.
-ABC
The only card that is troublesome is Leyline out of SnT decks. If you board in reactive cards, chances are they will have you beat. I'd rather try to bounce the Leyline, then disrupt. Swarm and chain are enough. Also they are a 3 card combo so unless they have it all you will have time.
So...them comboing turn 2 isn't a big deal. Got it. Sign me up for ANT. Clearly, just board in an ETW and swing ftw...
I would rather make them discard their SnT or Omniscience and counter their Dream Halls/Sneak attack and combo off a turn or two later and win. As far as Leyline is concerned, don't you play Chain of Vapor?
-ABC
EDIT: Sarnath'd. Didn't see the Chain post above. Still, I disagree, but I digress. If you don't like it in context, I suppose I will ease up until someone places well with it in tournament play. I think it should be heavily tested, but if it's not obviously broken like AD, I don't see that happening, and it's not obviously broken and takes a bit of finesse to use correctly, and that's the worst, especially for storm players. Finesse not being the storm player's strong suit and all...3 card combo in mono blue with plenty of cantrips and currently trying out teh infamous Intuition. Yeah, you got time
As others have said, reactive cards like Swan Song in a deck that relies on Infernal Tutor doesn't have much synergy. Boarding in reactive answers makes your deck slower while in a lot of cases you would rather speed up (i.e. using your open U to cantrip instead of waiting for a chance to counter a spell). Swan Song answers cards like Sneak Attack and Dream Halls that say Flusterstorm doesn't answer. However those are essentially 5cc cards, doesn't seem like it offers much value for a deck that should be able to go off earlier than that.
SnT decks tend to be soft to discard. So combine that with Chain of Vapor (and maybe EtW) and we should be good to go (esp. since we are the faster combo deck).
Legacy-Decks: UBrg ANT/TNT ~ RUG Canadian Threshold ~ Mono U OmniTell ~ U Candleless Spiral Tide ~ RG 1 Land Belcher ~ UBRGW Quadlaser Dredge
Yes, they are soft to discard and ergo board in Leyline to blank your discard! So you have to choose between bouncing their Leyline to turn on your discard or play Xantids. There's no discussion about what's more space efficient, isn't it?
EtW is total garbage in that matchup if the backlash to your Goblins is a hasted Griselbrand/Emrakul, an infinite number of Release the Ants or a Lab Maniac with a Brainstorm on the Stack.
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Look, I get that LED has no positive synergy with counter spells. I understand. I am saying that until you crack them (combo turn), counter spells are probably a better option for attacking the SnT strategy than discard, at least post-board. Also, yes, you are the "faster" combo deck. They are the blue combo deck. Have you ever played the Solidarity/Spring Tide/Spiral Tide matchup? You are faster, but they generally win. In fact, Solidarity often mocks you by comboing off after allowing you to ramp up 10 storm for them, and they do it with your lethal tendrils on the stack. I know, it's not that matchup, but honestly they play as many counter spells and Cunning Wishes. You still have swarm/Silence to protect your combo turn, it's not like you need the counterspells, so having to pitch all C-Spells is an unimportant part of this situation.
As far as boarding, after talking to my buddy who plays SnT and reading your posts, take out your discard.
(Version based of Lejay, Championed by Drew Levin):
Instant (14)
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation
Land (20)
4x City of Traitors
10x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
Sorcery (18)
4x Enter the Infinite
2x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Show and Tell
Enchantment (7)
3x Dream Halls
4x Omniscience
Creature (1)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sideboard (15)
3x Defense Grid
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Intuition
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pact of Negation
1x Release the Ants
1x Rushing River
1x Sapphire Charm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Trickbind
I'm trying to make the point that for U, you can counter around 39(!) of their cards in the maindeck, and 11 or so (yes, leyline, w/e) in the sideboard. Now, they aren't all spells you want or need to counter, but it's crazy relevant that it does the job. The 2/2 flyer is a non-issue, I hope we can at least all agree on that.
-ABC
Fine. If you think it's good despite 5+ people in this thread telling you counterspells are bad, then prove us wrong. Take it to a tournament or at the very least get some solid testing in.
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Okay, what list is the most agreed upon? I want this testing to be relevant to you guys, so what list would you prefer I test with? A full 12-cantrip list or is there a list people have agreed upon that has hybridized the 12 cantrip with LDV? Burning Wish(es) or not? I'm going to test soley against SnT (Mono-U Omni) pretty much identical to the one I just posted. I don't know if my buddies list is exactly that but I can assure you it's within 2-3 cards of it, and I don't mean it's missing 3 SnT. The changes would be very minimal.
Also, how many games/matches of seeing it will it take in your opinion to get solid and accurate results enough to 'prove' one way or the other?
-ABC
16-cantrip ANT seems to be the most common, I would try that. Just take any of the SCG grinders' lists. I could see an argument that the LDV version would be better suited to counterspells because LDV and top both work at instant speed anyway. Your choice.
Do like 6 games postboard with the default configuration (some number of Swarms, Chains, and some discard) so that you have a basis for comparison. Then do 6-10 games postboard with your suggestion. That's enough to get a rough feel for how it'll play out.
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That's pretty much how i figured.
sweet.
Just need to figure on max cantrip version or LDV version now. I imagine there is about a half turn speed difference?
I would assume you don't want it in 16 cantrip, considering you want to be tapping out to cast your cantrips most turns
I'm seeing people talking about Lim-Dul's Vault versions of the deck, but I haven't seen anyone playing it, nor have I seen any lists for it outside of the one in the Star City article. Is that what everyone is playing/referencing when they're talking about LDV?
I believe the one in the SCG article has 2 Top 2 LDV 0 Preordain 3 Lotus Petal 1 ETW main, and a fetch base.
BBD played the deck a few times in some opens with 2 Preordains over the Top.
Countermagic is really bad in the SB of this deck. Just try it and come back to us.
I think 16 cantrip Storm is a little too slow against the other combo decks in the format, and I can see why some might be having trouble. I think OmniTell is a reasonably fin matchup with 1-2 more tutors and 1-2 more discard with less Preordains. I also think if you just sideboard knowing that Leyline is the most difficult card to deal with, you should be OK. Swarms are very good in this matchup. They will not be turn 2ing with Leyline in the opener that often.
My best/(only real) SnT opponent is out of town until around the 10th, so my testing has to be put on hold. This is I will drop it until I have the opportunity to play him with 2-3 Swan Song in the board. I will be playing 6 on the draw game 2s and 6 on the play game 2s against him for the testing. I will talk about my findings and go from there. However, I am curious as to where exactly on SCG the article about LDV ANT is at. I looked, couldn't find it, but I'm not a premium member, so that could be it.
I'm a fan of LDV. A big one. I like it better than B. Wish by a long shot. B. Wish and Red Accel (namely RoF) is the reason I prefer ANT to TES.
-ABC
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