Miracle Control

[YamiJoey]

Gate is actually better that Fortress in most builds. There are very few keepable 1-landers at 6 and 7, and this + Karakas is still a T2 Counterbalance, and it allows you to fetch Islands and still cast your Entreats, or Tutor + StP, or whatever.

[alphastryk]

Ok guys, I get that Mystic Gate is consensus better. I'm going to try both, I just had Glacial Fortress on me this week. I'll need to dig up some Gates to give them a try.

[supachai]

Gents, how do you use Flusterstorm and against what do you board it in?

I board it in vs any sort of tempo deck (Rug, Patriot, Bug delver) and obviously combo. It's great at stopping stifles and ending counter wars. However I only run once since I dislike that it can't hit planeswalkers, enchantments like Sneak Attack, Counterbalance, and Oblivion Ring, and Artifacts like turn 1 Vial, Chalice, and equipment. All are commonly seen threats and so I run a 3-1 split with Spell Pierce. A 2-2 split is probably fine too.

[Qweerios]

Why doesn't every Miracle list start with 4 Ponders? When is 4 Ponders too "clunky"? Isn't Supreme Verdict superior to Terminus in Snapcaster Versions? Why split mass removal at all? Isn't there a better choice between Terminus, EE, and Verdict? I can understand wanting EE for its non-creature destruction aspect but I don't understand splitting Verdict and Terminus.

[twndomn]

Why doesn't every Miracle list start with 4 Ponders? When is 4 Ponders too "clunky"? Isn't Supreme Verdict superior to Terminus in Snapcaster Versions? Why split mass removal at all? Isn't there a better choice between Terminus, EE, and Verdict? I can understand wanting EE for its non-creature destruction aspect but I don't understand splitting Verdict and Terminus.

I can think lots of reasons why Miracle doesn't start the list with 4 Ponders, but I don't feel like typing a paragraph.

Even with Snapcaster, do you actually expect to get to 4 Mana when you play against Rishadan Port(s) + Thalia + Wasteland(s), when you need to play mass removal?

[Qweerios]

I can think lots of reasons why Miracle doesn't start the list with 4 Ponders, but I don't feel like typing a paragraph.

Even with Snapcaster, do you actually expect to get to 4 Mana when you play against Rishadan Port(s) + Thalia + Wasteland(s), when you need to play mass removal?

You are not answering my questions here but i will go ahead and assume that what you are trying to tell me is that terminus is better than verdict against dnt and goblins, correct?

I am also not asking for a whole paragraph on ponder, one good reason would be a good start.

[klaus]

.

Ponder is a cool card no doubt and its benefits are obvious. The reason you don't see any top8 lists running more than one/two alongside 4 BS 4 Top and Snapcaster into BS, is that including more cantrips decreases the chance of business cards in your opener. Imagine an opening seven with 2 BS, 1 Ponder, 1 Top: against Control this hand is actually kind of awesome, since you're not gonna be rushed to answer stuff anyway. Against fast Aggro and Comob however, you want your business spells "now", meaning spending your time to dig for answers during the first 3 turns instead of just being able to play them (with a higher threat density, sans 4 Ponders) is suboptimal.
Furthermore, the MD is very streamlined, with tons of full playsets so that digging for singletons via cantrips is something this deck hardly ever experiences. Post-board games certainly give Ponder a higher power level, since virtually increasing the density of your SB hate is cool.

Here's my current list for reference:

4 BS
4 Top
4 Jace
4 FOW
4 STP
3 Terminus
1 Verdict
2 Pierce
2 CS
3 CB
2 EE
3 EtA
1 Ponder

8 Fetch
4 Tundra
6 Island
2 Volc
1 Mountain
3 Plains

SB:
3 RiP
2 Pyroclasm
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Bloodmoon
2 Wear/Tear
1 CB
1 Pierce

[Dzra]

Against fast Aggro however, you want your business spells "now", meaning spending your time to dig for answers during the first 3 turns instead of just being able to play them (with a higher threat density, sans 4 Ponders) is suboptimal.

Mostly this, but to expand further... Ponder is better as an aggressive card. The aggressor ideally knows what they need to dig for to progress their game. Miracles is an extremely reactive deck. In order for Miracles to utilize Ponder, your opponent has to first deploy some sort of threat so you'll know what to dig for. Most aggressive decks in the format have some number of Dazes and Spell Pierces. As Miracles, I already have to wait and try to play around Daze and Pierce as patiently as I can. Spending a mana during your turn to cantrip only makes you have to wait that much longer to actually cast your business. This contrasts with Top, which lets you use mana during their turn and be fully untapped when it comes time for action.

The exception is the Ponder/Entreat version of Miracles that pops up occasionally (mostly in Europe) which differs from most builds in that it does try to be the aggressor, therefore the Ponders. Likewise, Ponder can be very good in the control mirror, as the role of aggressor is usually up in the air for the first three or four turns. Against most of the field though, most Miracles builds will be reactive for the majority of a game.

Why split mass removal at all? Isn't there a better choice between Terminus, EE, and Verdict? I can understand wanting EE for its non-creature destruction aspect but I don't understand splitting Verdict and Terminus.

Personally, I do dislike splitting removal in the main deck. I think Terminus is by far the best as you can cast it for at Instant speed. Sure it requires some setup, but Miracles has a lot of setup it can accomplish and it can usually afford to be patient. The side board is a bit different and I actually prefer splits in the board. Each spell has a strength. I want my MD's removal to be consistently good against most decks. I don't want to find an EE when I'm needing to sweep a Deathrite, Baleful Strix, and a Tarpit or when they drop an Emrakul off of Sneak Attack. I want to rely on the SB to tune me to beat specific strategies, not variant draws.

Against most decks, you'll bring in all of your sweepers or none, regardless. However in a few MU's like Sneak and Tell, Terminus is great while all other sweepers are dead. For example, Terminus is alright against Enchantress. Supreme Verdict is too slow and unnecessary. EE accomplishes what I'd want Terminus to do, plus much more. Pyroclasm is probably better than Terminus, but not as good as EE. I don't need to make my main deck less consistent to accomplish this, that's what the sideboard is for.

[twndomn]

Personally, I do dislike splitting removal in the main deck. I think Terminus is by far the best as you can cast it for at Instant speed.

Really? Do you really want to attempt Terminus through Stifle, then through Daze/Pierce/FoW? How about just tap 4 lands and do the actual removal, none of that Delver's non-sense?

I have no interest in fighting over some curse catcher/FoW, I play Verdict and Merfolks die.

Also, smart Goblin player would hold a Matron in hand while a Cavern in play. You can Terminus to buy yourself couple turns, it doesn't do much other than that against them Goblins.

[Higgs]

Even with Snapcaster, do you actually expect to get to 4 Mana when you play against Rishadan Port(s) + Thalia + Wasteland(s), when you need to play mass removal?

Really? Do you really want to attempt Terminus through Stifle, then through Daze/Pierce/FoW? How about just tap 4 lands and do the actual removal, none of that Delver's non-sense?

I don't quite get what your main point is in regards to the removal suite. It looks like you are saying Verdict is situationally good, which goes to support Dzra's point of maindeck consistency with a support of additional removal from the sideboard.

[Griselpuff]

I looked through the past couple of pages and didn't see any discussion on the Italian miracles lists. Did I just miss it?

Anyways, what do people think of Biava's list (No CB, Crucible)? Has anybody done any testing with it?

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/58278

[Lemnear]

I looked through the past couple of pages and didn't see any discussion on the Italian miracles lists. Did I just miss it?

Anyways, what do people think of Biava's list (No CB, Crucible)? Has anybody done any testing with it?

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/58278

Scooping to Burn.dec and DRS? No thanks

[twndomn]

I don't quite get what your main point is in regards to the removal suite. It looks like you are saying Verdict is situationally good, which goes to support Dzra's point of maindeck consistency with a support of additional removal from the sideboard.

If I understand Dzra correctly, he's advocating MD more Terminus because he justifies it as consistency or swiss army knife, since it could sometimes be good, even against combos like Sneak and Show. However, I disagree by stating that Terminus is Not as diverse, or as consistent as he suggests. I've already listed problematic MU using Terminus above, there're considerably fair number of players who play above mentioned decks in any tournaments. Furthermore, the different versions of Miracle complicate the usage/decision making upon seeing a Terminus. I would rather have a diverse split of Mass Removal between Terminus and Verdict, in a tournament with unknown meta, even Oarsman has a 3-1 split MD, 2-2 split is certainly reasonable.

[Cipher]

Really? Do you really want to attempt Terminus through Stifle, then through Daze/Pierce/FoW? How about just tap 4 lands and do the actual removal, none of that Delver's non-sense?

I have no interest in fighting over some curse catcher/FoW, I play Verdict and Merfolks die.

Also, smart Goblin player would hold a Matron in hand while a Cavern in play. You can Terminus to buy yourself couple turns, it doesn't do much other than that against them Goblins.

Terminus is actually pretty hard to counter if you even had Verdict mana to begin with. Just Force of Will, and I suppose Stifle. The fact that you can even flip it off a top at instant speed and get it countered is a testament to how powerful it is.

[SansSerif]

Another thing to keep in mind is that miracle cards are played from top of the library, which means they are generally less vulnerable to discard, and also more likely to catch your opponent off guard.

[Adryan]

I tested my new list, which is the 2nd one in the list:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/6044505

You just can't lose to decks with lots of creatures.

I think it's very good in a meta where you expect many decks with creatures (Shardless BUG, Jund, Esperdeathblade, Maverick, D&T, RUG Delver,...), some Control and Combo decks.
I really miss Vendilion Clique in the maindeck, but hey i just don't want to lose against Maverick, D&T, RUG Delver so i have them in the SB. I want to play a 3rd one but i have no idea what to cut (i also miss a 3rd Flusterstorm, but that's a different story^^)

As already mentioned in this thread i don't like the clunkyness of the RIP versions and i think my build is much stronger and more flexible. I think it is the opposite of Oarsmans Miracle list with 3 Clique and 1 Venser. His list is awesome against Control and Combo and okay against Tempodecks, Jund, etc. while mine is awesome against "Creaturedecks" and okay against Combo and Control. Of course it's not that black and white because Snapcaster is very good against Controldecks and very flexible, but just in general it's true.

[Dzra]

If I understand Dzra correctly, he's advocating MD more Terminus because he justifies it as consistency or swiss army knife, since it could sometimes be good, even against combos like Sneak and Show.

Basically what I'm saying is that for a given meta, there is a "best" mass removal. Terminus is that best mass removal right now. I would recommend maxing it out to 3 or even 4 before considering other MD sweepers. Running a hodgepodge of sweepers is only opening yourself up to variance. Running 3 Terminus and 1 Supreme Verdict is slightly different than splitting your sweepers, as you are essentially porting one of your sideboard cards to the main deck in order to save SB space and hedge against creature strategies. This is fine because you aren't actually losing any Terminus. However, I think it's silly to have 2-1-1 or 2-2 splits when there is a pretty clear best. If you think Supreme Verdict is the best mass removal right now then max out and run 3-4. Otherwise, you are just making yourself less consistent in hopes that you will happen upon your situational card when the correct situation arises.

I tested my new list, which is the 2nd one in the list:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/6044505

You just can't lose to decks with lots of creatures.

Congrats on the 4-0. Choosing to run 3 Snapcasters and no Cliques MD is pretty interesting. Why'd you choose that route and how'd you like it? Also, you sure did go heavy on the sweepers. What were your matchups? I didn't think MTGO was that packed with creature decks.

[Aetherick]

Has anyone been still running elspeth in the main or board? Or has the third entreat pretty much taken her place in the deck?

[twndomn]

New list, nothing terribly innovative, but I feel it's got game against everything. After taking a brief hiatus from the CounterTop version, it's back with a vengeance; it's just so good everywhere. I have preferred the Legends style build the most. Miracles I think has the most flexibility out of most of the decks in the format for maindeck answers that would typically be reserved for the sideboard, hence the large number of MD Enchantments. My only concern is the rather low blue count for FoW, but I think it's enough.

You can almost argue that MD Blood Moon spot could be Helm. This deck is not Imperial Painter, we don't run 6 Blood Moon effect cards. I still question the impact of that card as one-of, even with tutor.

Has anyone been still running elspeth in the main or board? Or has the third entreat pretty much taken her place in the deck?

The popularity of Elspeth seems to be correlated to the popularity of Shardless BUG.

[Dzra]

Has anyone been still running elspeth in the main or board? Or has the third entreat pretty much taken her place in the deck?

If you have room for both, Elspeth is probably better in the mirror. If you have only room for one then I'd go with the 3rd Entreat. It is better in more MUs and much higher impact. I've thought about running it MD, but most of the time it probably still isn't better than just more Entreats.