[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[entreri_fans]

If someone were to make a budget high tide deck (AKA candelabra-less high tide), would it be better to have Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to high tide?

I found these to be true about both but I could be wrong:

Advantages of Cloud of Faeries:
It can be used Pre-Time Spiral
It is cheap
This will barely matter but you can cycle it
Again this will barely matter but if you really need to, you can summon it as a chump blocker

Advantages of Palinchron:
Creates an Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm combo.
Isn't a crap untap effect post-time spiral unlike Cloud of Faeries

What do you think?

Hi, in my opinion, cloud of faeries is better, mainly because it's cheap in mana cost and serves as a pseudo draw effect. sometimes you really need that "draw 1 card" if you are unlucky post-Time Spiral or you just fizzle.

besides, palinchron is a dead card pre-combo, which I dislike. what's more, when you are able to create infinite mana with palinchron, meaning each of your island can already produce 3-4 mana at that time, you will already have easily won at that time. so that is a little win-more.

in my opinion, you can just try german list if you want to build candel-less High Tide. It's really good.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=81823

[.Ix]

I've been testing the German list for a while as well. It's very solid.

[TiMeWaLk]

Cloud of Faeries is way better than Palinchron (a card which should not even be considered).

I used them, thanks to the advices of esthoril, when I was not having Candelabras and they were really good. The chump block & cycle abilities are more relevant than you think.

[Cave]

The german list is super solid. Kinda one-trick-pony but really, it never misses a turn-4 combo.

Faeries are also good if you don't have Candelabras. Many guys in eu are placing themselves top8 while packing 2-3. I've been testing them myself and all I can say is i love to cunning wish for an echoing truth and storm it up with Faeries like a no-brainer.

[203995014]

Thanks for all your guy's insight. I will definitely be sticking to Cloud of Faeries.

[astormbrewing]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

[clavio]

Does anyone have any tips to keep better track of Storm, High Tides, Mana Floating, etc? I was using D6's and then I just switched to pen and paper.

I have large (one inch) D6s that I put on my islands to show how much mana they make. I don't count storm until TimeSpiral or a storm spell is played (can't waste time). Pen and paper is best though for storm/mana. Also make sure you have checks for the amount of turns you'll skip from meditate/number of times you'll die due to pact.

[JDK]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

"tweak"

[Cave]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

18 Lands
4 Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Retraced Image
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

This was more or less one of the first Time Spiral lists to have some success. It is basically what you say, german list + retraced image (but lacking meditate).

By the way, just for the record, on a recent event in Milan (400+ players attending) an italian guy piloting uncandled spiral tide did at least 9th place while there were many candle decks around.
There is an interview online which i can't find back at the moment, but it was around turn 6 in swiss rounds and he just beat miracles.
In that interview, he speaks about the very Clouds of Faeries: he plays three of them and has decided to do so because he says they are much more versatile than candelabras, they can untap, chumpblock and they can cantrip if needed, which is extremely good. I don't know his deck but I found an 1-month old top8 decklist of him (Michele Giua) and he likes to play a lot of meditates as I do. I did 3-1-2 drop at the same event with the German list, leaving the tournament because I was not feeling so well :)

Sadly, Top3-8 lists are not around, we just know the two russian guys in the finals were piloting maverick and UR tempo.

[203995014]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

[GoldenCid]

If someone were to make a budget high tide deck (AKA candelabra-less high tide), would it be better to have Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to candles?

I found these to be true about both but I could be wrong:

Advantages of Cloud of Faeries:
It can be used Pre-Time Spiral
It is cheap
This will barely matter but you can cycle it
Again this will barely matter but if you really need to, you can summon it as a chump blocker

Advantages of Palinchron:
Creates an Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm combo.
Isn't a crap untap effect post-time spiral unlike Cloud of Faeries

What do you think?

My successfulest list (see many pages above) run 2 cloud of fae and 3 turnabouts.

[elijah]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

I think you side out a High Tide and a Preordain. Ponder and Brainstorm are just too powerful to have less than four of them and and pretty much anything else in the deck is cemented in as your combo pieces, tutors, or counterspells.

My problem is that I don't know how to play against Dredge at all, so I can't give the most expert advice on how to play against them. I'm sure that they'll bring in hate vs. the Cages, which is why bringing into the maindeck a Surgical Extraction (if you have two) is probably a smart idea.

I think if the Ravenous Trap has been doing strongly enough against Dredge that you're more on the side of taking them out vs. keeping them in, try it with the switch. Mystics are much better against non-creature-centric metas, counterspell wars, and heavy discard; but the Cages give you a couple of extra turns against both Dredge, Reanimator, and Green Sun Zenith decks.

[flrn]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

You can board out Force of Will.

[.Ix]

I was hoping the Tide deck that top 8'd at Ovino would have no candelabras, and it turns out to be even cooler than I expected.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86948

4 Misty Rainforest
14 Island
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
2 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish


4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap


I haven't tested it yet but it looks really interesting.

[elijah]

So I've been reworking the deck to fit Cloud of Faeries in because I want to go to SCG Indianapolis, and don't have $900 for the Candels. Here's my list, tell me what you think.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Time Spiral
2 Turnabout
1 Medidate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Snap
1 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap

I found it actually interesting that being able to wish for a Snap to bounce Cloud of Faeries stopped a fizzle when I didn't have enough for a wish into Turnabout.

Pros I've found from playing with Cloud of Faeries vs. Candels:
It pitches to Force of Will
It cycles in a pinch, which at instant speed is really potent.
Chump blocking can buy you a turn

To further expand on chump blocking, since it untaps two lands, you can continue digging for cards with your cantrips, too.

Cons:
Turnabouts are a LOT weaker without Candels.
Vulnerable to removal. It's a huge risk to try and Snap it if they're playing red or white.

I'm still really unsure of what I wanted the Swan Song to be. I debated a maindeck Pact of Negation, but every time I started with it in my hand, I mulliganed to get rid of it. I might try it as a fourth Cloud of Faeries or the fourth Preordain, but as a fourth maindeck one mana counter that isn't conditional like Spell Pierce, it functions fine. It's not something I'd Scroll for, but it is nice to have something that gets Counterbalance, Sneak Attack, and Dream Halls, unlike Flusterstorm. I may try running the Pierce and seeing how it goes, but it's just so tough to have a one-off of something that isn't strong enough to Scroll for in such a tight 75 when you need to stop their spells. In a sticky situation, it can also be Snapped away if they don't have creatures or I couldn't find a Cloud of Faeries. Not that this will happen often, just that it IS a possibility.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hi elijah,

As I said before, I also played Cloud of Faeries in the past and I really liked the card. The "pitch" to force of will ability is really good. It's actually the reason why I regret Cloud the most (in comparison to candle).

About the quantities, I would never play less than 4 Turnabout in the deck. I would recommend to replace one of the weakest card (Snap, cloud) of your main board by the 3rd Turnabout. You'll find a lot of discussions about Meditate or BSZ main board, these are also cards you can consider cutting.

The pact of negation is useful against tempo and control decks usually. If you tested against Jund for example, yeah... it's not going to shine. Without it and some additional cards in your sideboard, I don't think you'll win counter wars against Thresh.

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.

[JDK]

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.

This is just nonsense.

You've got 3 Cunning Wishes, 4 Merchant Scrolls and a shitload of cantrips to find what you need and there is a reason why the "German" list has already proven to be consistent enough to put up results.

[TiMeWaLk]

If I am not mistaken, the German list you are referring to is playing 1 Brain Freeze in the side board. If you meant something different, you can just explain it.

[elijah]

Hi elijah,

As I said before, I also played Cloud of Faeries in the past and I really liked the card. The "pitch" to force of will ability is really good. It's actually the reason why I regret Cloud the most (in comparison to candle).

About the quantities, I would never play less than 4 Turnabout in the deck. I would recommend to replace one of the weakest card (Snap, cloud) of your main board by the 3rd Turnabout. You'll find a lot of discussions about Meditate or BSZ main board, these are also cards you can consider cutting.

The pact of negation is useful against tempo and control decks usually. If you tested against Jund for example, yeah... it's not going to shine. Without it and some additional cards in your sideboard, I don't think you'll win counter wars against Thresh.

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.

I was actually playtesting against Jund, so you may have a point. I'll need to try it against other decks as well, which I'll be doing in the next two weeks; maybe it will change.

Feline Longmore has been doing fine with 1 maindeck, 1 side Turnabout, which I tried. I just liked being able to find a 2nd copy whenever I need to get enough free mana to cast a Force of Will (it happens when I can't afford to lost the card), and it hasn't proven too difficult to find, and with Snap and Cloud of Faeries, it hasn't been a problem at all.

Threshold is a match-up I need to playtest more as a whole and my list may evolve as the date gets closer to the tournament.

While it is harder to get to the absurd amounts of mana that comes from Candel versions, I don't want to be on my back foot game 1 against Show & Tell, which is becoming a larger part of the meta.

Edit: I do have a Brain Freeze in the board, I just forgot to put it in my list. Whoops.

[TiMeWaLk]

Feline Longmore has been doing fine with 1 maindeck, 1 side Turnabout, which I tried. I just liked being able to find a 2nd copy whenever I need to get enough free mana to cast a Force of Will (it happens when I can't afford to lost the card), and it hasn't proven too difficult to find, and with Snap and Cloud of Faeries, it hasn't been a problem at all.

Feline plays 4 Candles and Turnabout is mainly there to untap 2 Candles or more. It is a completely different setup. You'll see that Turnabout is also very important to tap the lands of your opponent, a thing that Cloud cannot do.

While it is harder to get to the absurd amounts of mana that comes from Candel versions, I don't want to be on my back foot game 1 against Show & Tell, which is becoming a larger part of the meta.

Edit: I do have a Brain Freeze in the board, I just forgot to put it in my list. Whoops.

If you can use BSZ to kill, it is perfect. However, it is possible to struggle generating such a large amount of mana without candles. I am not saying you cannot do it, but if I have to run a list without Brain Frezze, it's for sure a list with Candles. But you have it anyway