[Primer] Elves!

[PendelSteven]

I have compared my current deck to that of Danyul at the SCG in 21-4-2013 and I see that I have mostly the same main 60 now.

From my 60 to those 60:
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth (2>1)
-1 Viridian Shaman (1>0)
-1 Forest (3>2)
+1 Heritage Druid (3>4)
+1 Regal Force (0>1)
+1 Gaea's Cradle (2>3)

Then again. Looking at the list form August, I see that Danyul made some changes.
From my 60 to those 60 are:
-1 Forest (3>2)
-2 Crop Rotation (2>0)
-2 Llanowar / Fyndhorn Elves (2>0)
-1 Priest Of Titania (1>0)
+1 Heritage Druid (3>4)
+2 Birchlore Rangers (1>3)
+1 Dryad Arbor (1>2)
+2 Gaea's Cradle (2>4)


@Danyul: what is your current stance at
- 2 Craterhoof vs 1 Hoof, 1 Force?
- 3 Birchlores vs 1 Birchlore, 2 Llanowar / Fyndhorn Elves / Mystic Elf?
- 2nd Dryad Arbor?
- 13 initial lands vs 14 initianl lands? Still on the 13?


Obviously at least a -1 CR, +1 Cradle is a good idea and most here would vote for the -2, +2 Cradle. However, Cradles aren't cheap, I don't play that much, so wether I keep it at 2,3 or 4 Cradles, is not a matter of choice, really.

I will test 13 initial with 4 Heritage, going -1 Forest (3>2), +1 Heritage (3>4). It seems like a good idea: not only you are doing it, I see also Chranderson having it, also Lukas Maurer, albeit pre-DRS 2nd place @ GP Ghent had 13 initial lands. So for those who already have only 13 initial lands - you are iin good company.


@Chranderson....
- I like your ideas. 3 or 4 Llanowar / Fyndhorn Elves / ME feels right to me. Do you miss the Birchlore you traded in for 1 though?

@kayradis
- you have the least initial lands of all I have in my spreadsheet. Only 12 initial lands! I'd advise you to ditch your Multani's Acolyte or Crop Rotation for a Fetch or even a Forest. Better yet, ditch both and a Forest and a Taiga to support your maindeck Thar.


Thanks in advice for all three to answer those questions!

[danyul]

Some of the lists you are referencing are out of date. The new legendary rules changed things a little bit.

I have been slowly updating the primer on my home computer but have yet to move it over to this thread. There have been back to back to back Legacy tournaments up here and I haven't had much free time to sit around poking at a primer. But it will get updated sometime after the Seattle SCG Open on October 19th with current lists.

Right now I think most of us can agree that:

-4 Cradles are standard. If you can't afford them, Crop Rotation is a decent substitute.
-2 Hoof main. Unless you live in Comboville, USA. Then you might run -1 Hoof, +1 Ruric Thar.

And actually, that's about it.

Some are maxing out on Birchlores. Some only run a single Dryad Arbor.

I am currently on 1 Birchlore, 2 Llanowar, 2 Dryad Arbor, 19 lands (9 fetch, 4 GCradle, 2 Arbor, 2 Bayou, 2 Forest) but I'm thinking about going to 20.

That said, *you should just run whatever list makes you happy*. There are merits for the faster builds with 4 Birchlores and there are merits for the slower builds with 2 Arbors and fewer Birchlores. I don't know your meta so it seems presumptuous for me to tell you how to build your deck. But those are the paths that people are taking right now.

I am a thoughtless netdecker zombie so my list constantly changes with what seems to be winning at the moment. My current mainboard list is 1 card off of Andrew Cuneo>Reid Duke's revised list from his SCG Premium article.

@kayradis - lol we need to get you a new phone. Spend less $ on foils and buy one! I'll get pictures up in a bit. I don't think my list is as pretty as some others (Lemnear? ChineseEricguy?)

[trevaftw]

http://www.twitch.tv/gay_jesus_of_nazareth

currently streaming legacy elves

[Lemnear]

@Kay
Was about time! One less to worry

@Daniel
My decks are usually englisch new-frame FOIL with german FBB duals ... Nothing toooooooo fancy imo. German cards tend to have some really stupid names and I like to have my opponents be able to read the cards without calling a judge over every 2 minutes at international events and ask for the rules text. (That crap Breaks my concentration)

[catmint]

Lately I am thinking a lot about elves and I want to try out a new build. Usually I would brew and test first, but elves is one of the few threads with decent discussions so I want to know your thoughts. :) I think some of you already worked in similar directions.

My thought is that the "regular" elves gameplan got so powerful that I want to have a really streamlined maindeck without shenanigangs like crop rotation, ooze, titania/archdruid, but as much fast mana as possible and 4 Natural Orders and maybe a Progenitus main. Most decks can't really beat a progenitus anyway...

Preboard I want to have a couple of different routes:
1) Glimpse
2) Play a lot of dudes and NO craterhoof
3) In case you are disrupted heavily or have to bait stuff play only a couple of dudes NO -> Progenitus
4) BFF

Questions arising are:
- birchlore vs. mana elves? - what's the best to generate mana in your experience...
- 2nd dryad -> hate it but might be valuable enough?
- 2 hoof and 1 prog or 1:1 split?
- playing 4 NO without the progenitus?

Thanks...

[Koby]

I still maintain that you don't want to have too many "enablers" and not enough density of creatures. This is even more important with Natural Order -> Hoof plan, since you want 3-4 creatures in play to make it worthwhile. The deck is already at a core of 11 non-creature spells, which I think may be at the upper limit. Adding more Natural Order means a higher chance of seeing it, but you also risk hands that have too many spells and not enough creatures. Added to that, the deck can cycle through a lot of cards very easily; making it more likely to see cards that may not be 4-ofs. I think 3 Natural Order is a good balance between those two competing ideas.

Birchlore vs Llanowars -- We have about 3-4 slots for this mana elf. A mix might be correct. I'm currently on 1 Birchlore and 2 Llanowars. This seems stable for me and I always enjoy seeing Llanowar Elf in the opening hand.

The second Dryad Arbor might make more sense in the SB against matchups where you want the high density of Natural Order into Progenitus/Ruric Thar, or other standalone targets. The SB plan then becomes +1 Natural Order, +1 fattie, and +1 Dryad Arbor to complement that plan. This is similar to CFB's sideboard from GP Denver.

[Eternal]

What do you think about U splash in side ?

Swan Song, Pierce, fluster

Am between B and U splash but which is better ?

[Kayradis]

Splash ?

No. Sorry.

[Eternal]

Omni-tell Match up : T1 Leyline, u got 2 cabal in main hand. Counts are your only out.

Just an uncommon situation.

[Kayradis]

Just be the faster deck. assuming the go T1 Leyline, that's 1 less card in hand they have to find their combo.

[Eternal]

Here's my side :

3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal
1 Qasali
1 Gaddock
1 Pro
1 NO
3 Decay
1 Ooze

Assuming the T1 leyline when you side in 7 discard ? Really ?

[Koby]

Assuming the T1 leyline when you side in 7 discard ? Really ?

I'll have to find the SCG Live game where that plan goes horribly, horribly wrong for the Elf player. It's common knowledge Elves plays discard in the sideboard.

[Absolutflipz]

I'll have to find the SCG Live game where that plan goes horribly, horribly wrong for the Elf player. It's common knowledge Elves plays discard in the sideboard.

I believe he was agreeing with you.

The question then becomes how good are Thorns/Thalia. I have played with that package for a while, too. They can be great, but they can also really disrupt your own plan (GSZ, NO, Glimpse) to the point of equally-hurting yourself.

Are there any other options beside discard and thorn/thalia? Does the only option remaining in this same vein boil down to what he was suggesting...blue counterspells?

[Koby]

Are there any other options beside discard and thorn/thalia? Does the only option remaining in this same vein boil down to what he was suggesting...blue counterspells?

Silence
Orim's Chant

[Julian23]

Which conveniently also trump Terminus if you manage to get around Counterbalance.

For now, I'm on Choke in the sideboard; at least for the MODO meta. Miracles much?

[catmint]

I still maintain that you don't want to have too many "enablers" and not enough density of creatures. This is even more important with Natural Order -> Hoof plan, since you want 3-4 creatures in play to make it worthwhile. The deck is already at a core of 11 non-creature spells, which I think may be at the upper limit. Adding more Natural Order means a higher chance of seeing it, but you also risk hands that have too many spells and not enough creatures. Added to that, the deck can cycle through a lot of cards very easily; making it more likely to see cards that may not be 4-ofs. I think 3 Natural Order is a good balance between those two competing ideas.

Birchlore vs Llanowars -- We have about 3-4 slots for this mana elf. A mix might be correct. I'm currently on 1 Birchlore and 2 Llanowars. This seems stable for me and I always enjoy seeing Llanowar Elf in the opening hand.

The second Dryad Arbor might make more sense in the SB against matchups where you want the high density of Natural Order into Progenitus/Ruric Thar, or other standalone targets. The SB plan then becomes +1 Natural Order, +1 fattie, and +1 Dryad Arbor to complement that plan. This is similar to CFB's sideboard from GP Denver.

Basically agree on what you write... I also worked with these assumptions/plans, but I want to explore new routes.
NO is so freaking strong that it feels strange having only 3 maindeck. The problem of having too many enablers is also a consideration, which is why I would opt to include NO-Prog in the maindeck. NO-Prog is clearly the "win-con" with the least precondition considering creatures on board/in hand.

In a 4 NO configuration I would learn more towards Birchlore in the split since he is much better at dumping out guys for NO even if your early manadorks are killed.

[Koby]

In a 4 NO configuration I would learn more towards Birchlore in the split since he is much better at dumping out guys for NO even if your early manadorks are killed.

I disagree completely with this reasoning. Birchlore Ranger utilizes two elves to generate one mana. Llanowar uses only one. Llanowar Elves and Quirion Ranger provide more explosive mana in the early turns and towards reaching 4 mana than does Birchlore Rangers. In my experience, Birchlore Ranger helps more in Glimpse chains than helping to cast Natural Order. I will concede that Birchlore chains help Natural Order become lethal; but those situations are rare. A turn 2 "partial non-lethal" NO for Hoof is about equal to a turn 3 "lethal" NO in terms of damage output.

[andrebonotto]

(...) A turn 2 "partial non-lethal" NO for Hoof is about equal to a turn 3 "lethal" NO in terms of damage output.

That is a situation not too uncommon to me. So, I'd like to propose a quick "opinion gathering":


If that happens to you, guys, considering the two following "maindeck situations", which option do you generally go for?


>>> MAINDECK SITUATION (1): 2x Craterhoof Behemoth

a) Go NO > Hoof on T2.
b) Wait to go NO > Hoof on T3.

>>> MAINDECK SITUATION (2): 1x Craterhoof Behemoth / 1x Ruric thar, the Unbowed

a) Go NO > Hoof on T2.
b) Go NO > Ruric on T2.
c) Wait to go NO > Hoof on T3.
d) Wait to go NO > Ruric on T3.


And if you could also comment on your reasons (or circumstances that change that), it would be much appreciated.

In my case, "in a vacuum" I think I'd lean toward:

(1.b) for I would prefere a surprise killer NO; and
(2.b) for I would like the relative "safety" that Ruric would offer;

[catmint]

What I meant is: Llanowar is better with glimpse because it makes mana while you still have your guy in your hand. Birchlore does not care and you can just dump your guys. So for the 2 NO use-cases birchlore is good since you can
1) dump guys "with a haste llanowar effect" for a NO (behemoth) in the following turn.
2) dump guys and play NO (for Prog) in the same turn if you have cradle.

Another pro birchlore factor is the Problem of disruption: If llanowar is killed or you play him after turn 1 it sucks. In these situations birchlore is stronger since it turns every elf in a "haste-llanowar" and makes Nettle ridiculous. If Llanowar is killed you are often stuck with a slow turn 2. If you play an "innocent elf" turn 1 like a quirion or a nettle and then follow up with a birchlore you can surprise "dump" your hand.. With a cradle, a turn 3 Natural Order (behemoth) or a surprise turn 2 Natural order for Progenitus (or Ruric vs. combo) is an easy game.

So in a way Birchlore has also a better synergy with cradle and helps you to get back faster if disrupted. Being able to surprise "NO" is also an important factor in outplaying your opponent.

These "glimpse chaining" situations you mentioned are also interesting when evaluation birchlore. In the "old pre-behemoth elves", birchlore was often cut, because just this use-case was too weak. In this "new elves" Glimpse is more often just a better ancestral or you want to play it turn 2 as a bait and if they don't pierce/force it get something out of it where birchlore shines.

I know people ran lists out there with 3 Birchlores, so it's nothing new. It came to me when thinking about maxing out NO and including Progenitus maindeck. By the way I think it might be "ok" to run 2 behemoth and 1 progenitus because the new Legend rule supports casting behemoth without tapping all your guys.

The question is: if I want to play 18 lands (with 4 cradle which is correct I think), the fat pack of 2 behemoth, 1 progenitus, 4 NO, 4 Glimpse leaves me with "only" 31 bodies (27 creatures and 4 GSZ; The creatures of course streamlined without GSZ targets like priest/ooze/teeg,...).

Did someone test in that direction?

[nudon]

I know people ran lists out there with 3 Birchlores, so it's nothing new. It came to me when thinking about maxing out NO and including Progenitus maindeck. By the way I think it might be "ok" to run 2 behemoth and 1 progenitus because the new Legend rule supports casting behemoth without tapping all your guys.

The question is: if I want to play 18 lands (with 4 cradle which is correct I think), the fat pack of 2 behemoth, 1 progenitus, 4 NO, 4 Glimpse leaves me with "only" 31 bodies (27 creatures and 4 GSZ; The creatures of course streamlined without GSZ targets like priest/ooze/teeg,...).

Did someone test in that direction?

I think this is what you may be looking for. The only difference is that Progenitus is in the sb. On that note, I wouldn't advise running 3 fatties... It's very similar to Lemnear's build. He first proposed cutting llanowar completely for birchlores.