Miracle Control

[blacknapkins]

Also simply using one to draw, fetching, and still having a second in play is fine as well. I would rather see all 4 tops in a game than none at all.

Yeah, I can't agree more. I think that the Miracles archetype can be taken in a number of different directions, all equally viable, but a few things should be consistent amongst the builds. Like having Miracles in the deck. And 4x Sensei's Diving Top.

With a Top in play Miracles can search up timely answers and haymaker bombs. Without a Top in play Miracles feels sluggish and disjointed. I try to be open-minded about all facets of the deck, but 4x Divining Top (and never sideboarding them out) is indisputably better than all other approaches to the Top.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm glad that we can have meaningful discussion on these forums, thanks for the insight. I certainly think just calling a list garbage, then justifying it with a tournament placement really proves something.

Valtrix,

I gotta hand it to you. Giving such neutral and almost positive response to the trolling post that he seemed to think was so helpful even while lacking in substance and insight. I have never seen such an irrelevant post on this message board evar.

/condescension



Now, I'm not sure I enjoy the black splash as much as the red, and I prefer Elspeth to Sorin (I've played both in other decks and still play elspeth in my Miracles version). Discard seems weak, but when it gets down to it, you can use Jace to bounce a creature and make them discard it. I like that. Do it in Esperblade all the time. This allows for Thoughtseize to be less 'dead' as the match goes into the late game. I do find it the weaker splash, but not a bad splash. I don't know what to think about the bird. I mean, we all know that the bird is the word, but is it good in Miracles? I've never personally found myself to have enough room to include a single Strix, let alone the set.

I'm running red for Pyroclasm (1), Sulfur Elemental (1), and Blood Moon (1); all in the sideboard. I don't play any REB at this point; blue not being a dominant color in my metagame, and the blue that is here is handled easily enough by Flusterstorm (Omni-Tell).

-ABC

[YamiJoey]

Top does a specific thing. It is a slow way of finding the cards you want to assemble your many contraptions. Against certain decks you simply don't have the luxury of making a Top and not wanting to make any relevant plays. I have been fine with my three, and I run into Tops much less off the back of them. Yes, I want them in my opener, but I never want to see too many in a game.

[twndomn]

Top does a specific thing. It is a slow way of finding the cards you want to assemble your many contraptions. Against certain decks you simply don't have the luxury of making a Top and not wanting to make any relevant plays. I have been fine with my three, and I run into Tops much less off the back of them. Yes, I want them in my opener, but I never want to see too many in a game.

That makes little sense for at least 2 reasons.

1. Too many in a game? With only 1 Top, how could you be sure if your opponent is baiting you into drawing Top and putting Top on the library to counter CMC 1 and then play something other than CMC 1? Most CB-T players would be gladly to have 2 Top on board, just so they can securely lock CMC 1 spell without getting baited.

2. How's turn 1 Top, turn 2 activate Top to look, then play a fetchland, possibly break it to find fresh 3 too slow? If anything is slow, it should be Jace. A deck like Miracle, without Mana acceleration, you don't have the luxury to hold this CMC 4 card in your hand, when you need answer on that turn and you don't have 4 lands.

[Einherjer]

Sure, constructive discussion is a good thing. But at some point a bottom line has to be drawn. One of those points is Sensei's Divining Top. Playing less than 4 is wrong, playing more is illegal. Easy as that. Discussion ended.

Greetings

[Dzra]

I'm pretty sure about 6 Tops is the correct number of Tops.

[supachai]

I'm pretty sure about 6 Tops is the correct number of Tops.

I wish we could run 6 Brainstorm as well.

On a more serious note, I finally cut Snapcaster Mage, going up to 3 Clique and 4 Counterbalance. I'm liking the changes so far. With tight play, I've found that Snapcaster isn't necessary to beat creature decks. The 3rd Clique has been nothing short of amazing; it helps with getting Miracles and useless cards out of my hand and provides a disruptive clock against combo. The 4th Counterbalance has proved itself in the Delver, Burn, Combo, and Control matchups. I also like that I have no more bad synergy with Rest in Peace.

What does everyone think about cutting Snapcasters? A lot of decks on http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy still run Snaps over more Cliques and Vensers, but I'm starting to think that they just aren't necessary.

Other than that, I'm extremely happy with the deck right now. I feel like I have a fair to good shot at beating everything, with the exception of 12 post and maybe Goblins, but I feel Goblins is winnable as well with the right cards. Delver and most combo decks are pretty easy, Jund and Shardless are grindy but if we get to the lategame, they can't beat Entreat (3 copies helps a lot here). Show and Tell is easy unless they just draw the nuts, and we fail to find Venser, Karakas, or enough counter magic in time. Reanimator, which has been doing well, just seems like a bad version of Show and Tell. Against DnT and Maverick, as long as we don't get mana screwed we're fine. Dark Maverick can be tricky sometimes with Confidant + Thalia. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I feel like Miracles is actually really strong right now.

[klaus]

What does everyone think about cutting Snapcasters?

How I see SCM:
* His body is irrelevant, since we hardly ever win via combat damage outside of EtA tokens
* conditional instant tutor: can be either removal, land (via cantrip) or counter magic - and that's actually his USP
* good CMC fo CB
* much better at getting rid of Miracles if you have a BS in the yard - though this again is conditional

How I see Clique:
* relative casting is cost actually lower than SCM's (he probably costs 3,5 mana on average, counting the flashback card)
* body is kind of relevant: +1 power + evasion
* definitely better against combo
* slightly better against Control (@ clearing the way for Jace)
* worse against anything Aggro (though this is a rare case, but I've flashed back S. Verdict on a few occasions with SCM)
* neat Karakas tricks - though this is about as rare as flashing back a Verdict
* slightly worse CMC for CB, unless you're frequently battling Sneak & Show

That being said, I'm currently running between 1-2 SCMs and no Cliques (current list can be found above). The reason I'm not rocking Cliques is that with my full playset of CBs and quite a bit of SB hate the Combo MU is good enough. SCM just feels more like MD material due to its versatility. Anyway, if you're facing a Combo and Control-heavy meta, 3 Cliques can actually be the right call.

[Adryan]

I have a 7O win % with this list on Magic Online (~200 games, some dailies and a lot of 2 man queues).

My list has zero Cliques MD, 3 Snapcaster and 2 Ponder with 22 Lands. I really enjoy playing it. Miracle is really powerful with SDT and Fetchlands, but sometimes you just don't have SDT, because you didn't draw one or your opponent has a Needle etc. or you don't have a Fetchland and the top cards of your library suck.
These are the situation where i really enjoy playing Ponder and sometimes Snapcaster Mage.

Snapcaster Mage is the king of flexibility, but make sure that you have a lot of good 1CMC spells if you play more than 2.

I want to find a Wincon? Snapcaster Mage will help. I want to kill a creature! Snapcaster Mage will help. I want to stop Combo and find disruption or flashback disruption. Snapcaster Mage will help.

Vendilion Clique is a great card, but in some matchups like RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Maverick, D&T etc. Snapcaster is strictly superior.

With Snapcaster Mage and Ponder our extremely powerful deck feels more consistent and powerful. Just try it out.

[alphastryk]

Sure, constructive discussion is a good thing. But at some point a bottom line has to be drawn. One of those points is Sensei's Divining Top. Playing less than 4 is wrong, playing more is illegal. Easy as that. Discussion ended.

Yep, no legitimate argument to play less than 4. I wish I could play 5 or 6. That's what Ponder / Portent etc help with.

[supachai]

I have a 7O win % with this list on Magic Online (~200 games, some dailies and a lot of 2 man queues).

My list has zero Cliques MD, 3 Snapcaster and 2 Ponder with 22 Lands. I really enjoy playing it. Miracle is really powerful with SDT and Fetchlands, but sometimes you just don't have SDT, because you didn't draw one or your opponent has a Needle etc. or you don't have a Fetchland and the top cards of your library suck.
These are the situation where i really enjoy playing Ponder and sometimes Snapcaster Mage.

Snapcaster Mage is the king of flexibility, but make sure that you have a lot of good 1CMC spells if you play more than 2.

I want to find a Wincon? Snapcaster Mage will help. I want to kill a creature! Snapcaster Mage will help. I want to stop Combo and find disruption or flashback disruption. Snapcaster Mage will help.

Vendilion Clique is a great card, but in some matchups like RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Maverick, D&T etc. Snapcaster is strictly superior.

With Snapcaster Mage and Ponder our extremely powerful deck feels more consistent and powerful. Just try it out.

Yeah, my original list way back when ran 2-3 Ponder and 3 Snapcasters. I've slowly cut down to 1 Ponder and my Snaps are all gone now too. I certainly really liked having Snapcaster in my deck. It made me feel safe, and it did make the deck feel more consistent. I don't think they contend for Vendilion Clique's spots though. That card is a 3-of for me no matter what. Other than being good against combo and control, it flashes in end of turn to kill planeswalkers, can kill pretty much any creature that isn't Goyf, and gets a huge amount of advantage with Karakas in play. I feel like if I were to go Snapcaster again, the build would require shaking up.

For example, do you board in Rest in Peace against Jund/Shardless/RUG? If you do, don't you board out the Snaps? Snaps are good in these matchups, but Rest in Peace is better. I used to just side out my Snaps but I feel like without them sideboarding feels more smooth. With Snaps I would probably have to run 2 Relic + 2 Surgical or something and I just don't feel safe without Rest in Peace. I feel like I would also want to run more Flusterstorm and cut Misdirection from the board. This changes the boarding plan pretty significantly. Without RIP and Misdirection, I feel like I am much worse against Jund and Shardless. I would probably be better against combo with the Surgicals, extra Flusterstorm, and Snaps and probably better against Goblins and DnT too.

[twndomn]

I have a 7O win % with this list on Magic Online (~200 games, some dailies and a lot of 2 man queues).

My list has zero Cliques MD, 3 Snapcaster and 2 Ponder with 22 Lands. Just try it out.

There's is no reason to doubt Snapcaster. Europeans run something like your list all the time. If you look at tournament results around the world, usually you'll find a European Snapcaster list first, don't need any more convincing. Simply put, running Snapcaster is a calculated risk. You commit yourself to graveyard utilization and hope that you are more consistent than Dredge/Reanimator/Tin-fin... etc. Not only SCG Open Milwaukee has Dredge and Renanimator, it also has oops-all-spell in the top 8. That's the decision you have to make, Europeans seem to get away with it all the time.

[supachai]

There's is no reason to doubt Snapcaster. Europeans run something like your list all the time. If you look at tournament results around the world, usually you'll find a European Snapcaster list first, don't need any more convincing. Simply put, running Snapcaster is a calculated risk. You commit yourself to graveyard utilization and hope that you are more consistent than Dredge/Reanimator/Tin-fin... etc. Not only SCG Open Milwaukee has Dredge and Renanimator, it also has oops-all-spell in the top 8. That's the decision you have to make, Europeans seem to get away with it all the time.

Yeah, Snapcaster is without a doubt a great card. But so are Clique and Venser. It's a matter of which list is more optimal. A lot of it probably comes down to metagame though. Here in SoCal, pretty much everyone runs Legend version with an occasional Helm list. In Europe it's Snapcasters (and some without Counterbalance) all the way.

[YamiJoey]

Yeah, Snapcaster is without a doubt a great card. But so are Clique and Venser. It's a matter of which list is more optimal. A lot of it probably comes down to metagame though. Here in SoCal, pretty much everyone runs Legend version with an occasional Helm list. In Europe it's Snapcasters (and some without Counterbalance) all the way.

Who the hell isn't playing Counterbalance?

[Dzra]

I think that as control players, we don't particularly like the clunkiness of a maindeck RIP package. I'm pretty sure though that however nice it feels to durdle around with Snapcasters and more counterspells, maindecking RIPs is just correct right now.

This is the Top 8 from the last SCG:

Sneak and Show
Oops, All Spells!
Reanimator
Dredge
Four-Color Delver
Explorer Pod
Ad Nauseum Tendrils
U/W/R Delver

Of the top 8, RIP doesn't nuke 2 of the decks.

Here is 9-16:

BUG Delver
RUG Delver
Grixis Delver
Reanimator
U/R Delver
Four-Color Delver
Elves 15th Stephan
RUG Delver

Here, just over half have heavy reliance on the graveyard.

My local meta last week was:
Shardless BUG
Shardless BUG
Miracles
Miracles
GBr Explorer
Jund
RUG
Reanimator
Dredge
Oops All Spells
Goblins
Affinity
ANT
(and I think a couple others that I can't recall)

Of these 13, 9 rely pretty heavily on the GY.

I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be running a more streamlined RIPless list, I'm just saying that RIP is very good right now.

[YamiJoey]

I'd play RiP against a blind field before Snapcaster any day lf the week. Sometimes it wins you the game, sometimes it slows them down, but having access to "5: You win the game." is pretty powerful against decks like Storm, which are an awkward MU when you get a soft lock in place and just can't kill them.

RiP Helm is just such a very good win condition, especially when you're also threatening to make Angels.

[Piceli89]

I think that as control players, we don't particularly like the clunkiness of a maindeck RIP package. I'm pretty sure though that however nice it feels to durdle around with Snapcasters and more counterspells, maindecking RIPs is just correct right now.

This is the Top 8 from the last SCG:

Sneak and Show
Oops, All Spells!
Reanimator
Dredge
Four-Color Delver
Explorer Pod
Ad Nauseum Tendrils
U/W/R Delver

Of the top 8, RIP doesn't nuke 2 of the decks.

Here is 9-16:

BUG Delver
RUG Delver
Grixis Delver
Reanimator
U/R Delver
Four-Color Delver
Elves 15th Stephan
RUG Delver

Here, just over half have heavy reliance on the graveyard.

My local meta last week was:
Shardless BUG
Shardless BUG
Miracles
Miracles
GBr Explorer
Jund
RUG
Reanimator
Dredge
Oops All Spells
Goblins
Affinity
ANT
(and I think a couple others that I can't recall)

Of these 13, 9 rely pretty heavily on the GY.

I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be running a more streamlined RIPless list, I'm just saying that RIP is very good right now.

You can't take the top8 of a single tournament as data specimen and therefore conclude that it's RIP's time. That's just a coincidence.
You'll face several archetypes in a tournament where RIP will sit there as an useless card, or where its impact is so low that it still remains suboptimal. I can name Goblins, Merfolks, Elves, Miracle, Stoneblade, High Tide, and many more.
I think it's just better to have an all-around decent card like Snapcaster Mage, which at worse is an Ambush Viper.

RiP Helm is just such a very good win condition, especially when you're also threatening to make Angels.

I think no good player playing a deck with interaction will ever lose to the Rip combo. Helm of Awakening is terrible garbage, so is Enlightened Tutor when your main priority is to keep your resources higher that your opponent's, i.e. the purpose of a control strategy. Entreat the Angels by itself is solid enough to not waste further slots on clunky cards. Anyways, this is basically Europe vs. America style of playing Miracle, so I guess it's a worthless argument.

[twndomn]

You'll face several archetypes in a tournament where RIP will sit there as an useless card, or where its impact is so low that it still remains suboptimal. I can name Goblins, Merfolks, Elves, Miracle, Stoneblade, High Tide, and many more.
I think it's just better to have an all-around decent card like Snapcaster Mage, which at worse is an Ambush Viper.
I think no good player playing a deck with interaction will ever lose to the Rip combo. Helm of Awakening is terrible garbage, so is Enlightened Tutor when your main priority is to keep your resources higher that your opponent's, i.e. the purpose of a control strategy. Entreat the Angels by itself is solid enough to not waste further slots on clunky cards. Anyways, this is basically Europe vs. America style of playing Miracle, so I guess it's a worthless argument.

I wrote the Europe vs America thing while back before Mod removed my post, apparently when I pointed out the obvious, people believe I'm a racist. It's not about Europe vs America, it's about Graveyard hate vs Graveyard utilization. BTW, Stoneblade => Lingering souls, High Tide => Time spiral (returns cards in graveyard to library).

[thecrav]

You can't take the top8 of a single tournament as data specimen and therefore conclude that it's RIP's time. That's just a coincidence.

How about the top 16 of the last 7 SCG opens?

Reanimator: 10
RUG delver: 9
Shardless BUG: 7
Omni-Tell: 6
Sneak Attack: 6
Jund: 5
ANT: 4
UWR delver: 4
Elves: 4
Goblins: 4
Belcher: 4
Painted Stone: 4
Merfolk: 4
TES: 4
Grixis Delver: 3
Dredge: 3
4c Delver: 3
Lands: 2
Burn: 2
U/R Delver: 2
BUG delver: 2
MetalWorker: 2
WBR Deathblade: 2
4c Loam: 2
Death and Taxes: 2
U/W Miracles: 2
Affinity: 1
Deathblade: 1
High Tide: 1
12 post: 1
Oops, All Spells: 1
GB LoamPox: 1
Dark Maverick: 1
W/B Stoneblade: 1
4c Cascade: 1
Nic Fit Blue: 1

For reference, I've highlighted 58 of 112 decks that it's relevant against.

[Countertoplol]

How about the top 16 of the last 7 SCG opens?

Reanimator: 10
RUG delver: 9
Shardless BUG: 7
Omni-Tell: 6
Sneak Attack: 6
Jund: 5
ANT: 4
UWR delver: 4
Elves: 4
Goblins: 4
Belcher: 4
Painted Stone: 4
Merfolk: 4
TES: 4
Grixis Delver: 3
Dredge: 3
4c Delver: 3
Lands: 2
Burn: 2
U/R Delver: 2
BUG delver: 2
MetalWorker: 2
WBR Deathblade: 2
4c Loam: 2
Death and Taxes: 2
U/W Miracles: 2
Affinity: 1
Deathblade: 1
High Tide: 1
12 post: 1
Oops, All Spells: 1
GB LoamPox: 1
Dark Maverick: 1
W/B Stoneblade: 1
4c Cascade: 1
Nic Fit Blue: 1

For reference, I've highlighted 58 of 112 decks that it's relevant against.

It's relevant against nic fit too as it shuts off deathrite shaman and cabal therapy flashback. And some painter lists run welder.