[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[davelin]

Silence is an awful answer to Vendillion Clique, the opponent removes your win condition, establishes a clock and gains card advantage where Thought Seize removes whatever remaining permission the opponent has in his hand while you search for another win condition or avoids the problem entirely by discarding Vendillion Clique before turn 3.

I'm liking +2 Thought Seize MD, -1 Cabal Therapy SB quite a bit, I think you're seriously under estimating just how hard the Miracles deck with 4 MD Vendillion Clique and SB Meddling Mage is with Duress coughing up air.

4 MD Cliques is pretty bad deck construction, each one drawn after the first is significantly worse. I find that those playing Clique usually do one of two things - cast it immediately at your EOT when they have the chance or wait until your combo turn. In the first scenario you should still have plenty of opportunity to setup, not to also speak of having a second business spell or cantrip to help find another one. In the last scenario they are giving you plenty of time to setup or find ways to play around the Clique, as well as having to leave up at least 3 mana each turn in case you're able to go off.

[Asthereal]

It's pretty obvious that Thoughtseize makes us lose life and that Gitaxian Probe can as well, but it's a matter of how you play these cards and the benefits of Thoughtseize over Duress. It'll require some serious playtesting against tempo decks to see if Thoughtseize can stand in those match-ups, but it'll certainly help out in every single non-blue match-up including Thalia decks.

I'm not saying that I'm making the switch, but it's worth testing.

I've been using Seizes instead of Therapies for some time and I'm happy with them. Removing the randomness factor of Therapy is worth the life loss, and one can always cast Probes for mana. Never used them in the main over Duress or Silence though. It deserves a test run, though I have the feeling Duress and Silence will win that battle. Maybe as a one-of instead of the Therapy Bryant uses in the main could be an option. Also depends a bit on the sideboard space.

MB 4x Silence, 2x Duress, 1x Seize
SB 2x Seize
This gives us the option to postboard play 3x Seize, 2x Chain, 2x Decay against Maverick, D&T and so on.

MB 4x Silence, 3x Duress
SB 3x Seize
This would cost us the option to play 1x Trop and 3x Swarm on side (not enough SB room). This is probably slightly better against Tempo, but worse against S&T stuff that side Leyline of Sanctity.

MB 4x Silence, 3x Seize
SB ?
This does seem to cost too much life in the long run, because it means that we have Seizes in the deck at least one game every round we don't need them. My preference would go out to one of the first two options. Testing option 2 seems unnecessary though, since that's actually what I played last time I ran TES. (Worked fine for me, btw.)

[Pelikanudo]

Therapies are able to 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 in certain situations which is an aspect of battling other Ritual-decks and defensive counter strategies. I agree that Thoughtseize is a golden bullet and always hit but between Probes, Fetches and Cities, Thoughtseize is horrible against anything that might add pressure and easily make Ad Nauseam worse once you have to fight though defense (Imagine being forced to strip a Stifle post-AN).

The only possible evolution to the protection-suit in the forseeing future is playing 3 Therapy Main and 1 SB, cutting the Duress' and trying to force your Probes in every Game 1 and next-level your skill to estimate the right calls for blind-Therapies according to the gamestate.

+1 agree

I have to say that I love therapy, and I'm looking other combo players love more and more Therapy, I even played the ANT deck with 4 therapys and 3 duresses, instead 3 and 4 and no regret...
I really think also that at least in TES i would substitute 3 duress for full therapys, not Silence. Therapy can act perfectly as Silence in the Combo moment for example and in this scenario is even stronger having the opportunity of 2of whatever has no Price.
I see simply Therapy stronger than Duress and of course than T.Seize.
I'm really thinking in taking out full of duresses from main, this will be something to test... I'll have 1 free slot!
Apart, for a Good Combo Player, Vendilion can be even a good card for us...

[Lemnear]

Having 4 Therapy and 2 EtW in the 75 sounds nasty. Doubt I have time to test

[Bryant Cook]

I did some testing today against RUG, UW Stoneblade and Sneak Show with the disruption package of 4 Silence, 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Cabal Therapy. I didn't notice the lifeloss in the games I played, there was a single game where it could've mattered if I hit multiple runners in a row, but it didn't happen anyway. I was happy with the Thoughtseizes, but I do understand that it's a small sample size.

I did realize that now we do have a LOT of disruption for the Thalia decks to the point where I was unsure of what to do. I was thinking:

-4 Silence
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox

+1 Tropical Island
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Chain of Vapor
+2 Abrupt Decay

the alternative is not bringing in Decay and instead keeping the Ponder and Chrome Mox.

[Final Fortune]

Never saw 4 MB Cliques and you can switch Duress vs. Therapy in postboard games so the last sentence is strange. Clique isn't cardadvantage and in my experience too slow to do anything meaningful and if they run 4 Cliques and severL Meddling Mages as hate postboard I doubt that Terminus are still in the deck too. They can't have sweepers, counters and hatebears in one deck available. Would be a strange plan.

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

[davelin]

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

Personally I've never seen a decklist from a major event with four Cliques but I could be wrong. Who forgot that clique has flash, I didn't certainly. It can certainly be an annoying card to have to deal with but I don't think backbreaking given 8 pieces of business and numerous cantrips to help us dig for them.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

I personally feel that this is a little obsessive with the life-loss. But I agree with your sentiments about three Cabal Therapy main deck.

In other news, I think the Tropical may be leaving my sideboard for a third Abrupt Decay. It's not something I'm positive about, but I expect more Miracles than average at the upcoming invitational.

[Lemnear]

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

Dunno ... could be because englisch's only my 4th language; could be because you bring up examples I never saw or read about; could be because you miss my point about EtW being amazing against a disruption-plan which is based on creatures and therefore I expect sweepers leaving their mainboard then.

Your example is pretty much the kind I ranted about a few pages back and/or in another thread: It's pointless to discuss the efficiency of 3cc or 4cc cards like Venser, Glen Elendra, Bloodmoon, Arcane Lab, V.Clique an others against a deck which's capable to win during it's first few turns. I hope this topic doesn't develop into slinging some best-/worst-case-scenarios.



Edit: Dunno if I would feel too well with AN while running Thoughtseize and 2-3 Decays in postboard games against something like RW Goblins w/ Thalia

[Bryant Cook]

Edit: Dunno if I would feel too well with AN while running Thoughtseize and 2-3 Decays in postboard games against something like RW Goblins w/ Thalia

You wouldn't be siding all three Abrupt Decays in against Goblins with Thalia. Also, I decided I'm going to test 4 Silence/2 Therapy/1 Thoughtseize last night with a Therapy and a 'Seize in the sideboard last night, no Tropical, three Decay. The second Seize in the board limits the amount of unnecessary life-loss as well as ensures you only need it in the match-ups where the deck specifically needs the discard a creature effect.

[Lemnear]

You wouldn't be siding all three Abrupt Decays in against Goblins with Thalia. Also, I decided I'm going to test 4 Silence/2 Therapy/1 Thoughtseize last night with a Therapy and a 'Seize in the sideboard last night, no Tropical, three Decay. The second Seize in the board limits the amount of unnecessary life-loss as well as ensures you only need it in the match-ups where the deck specifically needs the discard a creature effect.

Sounds good to test both (more MB Therapy and Thoughtseize) at the same time.

I tend to say that the possible cut of MB Duress might free up another SB slot. (1 SB discard should be enough if you don't have to switch between Therapy and Duress anymore)

[Bryant Cook]

Sounds good to test both (more MB Therapy and Thoughtseize) at the same time.

I tend to say that the possible cut of MB Duress might free up another SB slot. (1 SB discard should be enough if you don't have to switch between Therapy and Duress anymore)

It could, but I do like having five discard spells post-board against Thalia decks. I'm not sure what I would even want to play if I decided to cut a sideboard discard spell.

[Lemnear]

It could, but I do like having five discard spells post-board against Thalia decks. I'm not sure what I would even want to play if I decided to cut a sideboard discard spell.

1st World problems ;)

Trop + 3 Decay maybe? TP? Lets see first how it works out with CT & Ts

[Deviruchi]

I did yesterday a testing session with

Main: 4 Silence, 1 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Thoughtseize

Maindeck felt funky a little but with 3 various form of discard but was still ok. Twice having Thoughtseize was key but also once Duress was very important. I missed having 3 CT in g2&3 for sure. Tried SB: 1 Tropical with 3 AD and 1 CoV but missed having more CoV's so it was a wrong idea.

[Bryant Cook]

I did yesterday a testing session with

Main: 4 Silence, 1 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Thoughtseize

Maindeck felt funky a little but with 3 various form of discard but was still ok. Twice having Thoughtseize was key but also once Duress was very important. I missed having 3 CT in g2&3 for sure. Tried SB: 1 Tropical with 3 AD and 1 CoV but missed having more CoV's so it was a wrong idea.

With three singleton disruption spells, you can't ever Infernal Tutor for a second copy in dire situations. Awkward.

[Vandalize]

OFF:
There's a little problem in playing 3 Thoughtseizes in your 75. How are we going to buy 3 Japanese Foils Lorwyn Thoughtseizes without selling our cars?

ON:
Thoughtseize is only significantly worse against RUG and UWR Delver. In pretty much all other matchups, it's a strict improved Duress. How's that testing going?

[Pelikanudo]

I think just 2 therapy 1 duress is ok.

The only match up I will regret not casting a Therapy blind will be Reanimator and maybe S&T and MUD, but for the rest: Thalia Deccks, Control, BUG, Tempo, Agro etc I do not think on averall it is worse, I've seen and calibrated several games vs Thalia Decks in which Therapy is way superior because they put in the 4th copy or in synergy with CoV as its is legendary, you even name blindly the card if you suspect and this will not matter much on the other hand vs T.Seize because if they do not have it just will die.
So on average I think just 2 Therapy 1 duress main will just work ok, and just play 1 in side. Accordingly I'll have 1 free slot and could be possibly be 3rd A.Decay, also expect in my meta miracles and Thalia.Decks. The problem becomes that now you need another duress effect to side --> can be 4th therapy or duress--> Again 2 A.Decay. Also Therapy is great in the ANT match up much better than duress.

[BrettF]

Manaless dredge 2-0
Elves 2-0
UR delver 1-2
Death and taxes 0-2
Cloudpost 2-0
Tin fins 2-0
UWR Delver 0-2
RUG Delver 2-0
Mono Red Burn 2-0

35th after 9 rounds of playing THE EPIC STORM at SCG Seattle.*
No duresses would have been really nice vs DNT, but suicide vs the aggressive draws my dellver losses gave me.

[Lemnear]

Once you have eliminated the Main-weaknesses of the previous MB discard-suit (creatures), it's questionable if you either want the golden bullet effect for 2 life, or the possible cardadvantage (and mindtricks via snapcalling) of Therapy which is really nasty if you use it to Force through an EtW. Aside from stripping the only creature in a tempo-players hand I can imagine a lot more value coming from Therapy

[paeng4983]

@Lem
RE: -1 chrome for + 1 city of [br]ass

Having this substitution made my opening-hand-decision-making more easy.
Mathematically speaking, like 75% of the time, having the 3rd brass in the 60 is a good thing. It also effectively freed a slot in my SB replacing the lone Trop for Pyroclasm.

The remaining 25% consist of the situations where you wish it was a mox like flipping it during an ad naus to help you in your mana producing; or wishing it was a mox to increase your goblin storm.

---

RE: Thoughtseize
4 Silence / 2 Cabal / 1 Thoughtseize is a good ratio in terms of upgrading our main 60 against creature-hate-main-decks.

I think reducing the Cabal by 1 and replacing it with a 3rd AD is another improvement to help us fight against UW Miracle lovers.

^_^

We have our scheduled big legacy event this Sunday. I've been [re]using TES since June of this year and always end up 9th or 10th placer. I just wish things go my way this weekend and hope to make it again on top.

Good luck Cook on the invitational. We're all be waiting for your tournament report.

See you in two weeks, Lem.

^_^