Excuse me? Why should I scoop to pilots that don't even bother to play some winconditions in their deck? You can bet, I stall into a 1-0-0 win or a draw if my Miracles opponent just runs 3 Jaces and a celestial colonade (wasted) as wincons (I had the "honor" once to play auch a build) and expect me to scoop just because they completely misbuild their deck...Originally Posted by Kyle
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I tweaked the deck some, and took it to the local yesterday. Here's the list and what happened!
Lands (23)
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
Creatures (2)
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (35)
Control
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
Card Advantage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
Tutor Package
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
Win Conditions
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
Sideboard
1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wear // Tear
1 Path to Exile
1 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Counterbalance
3 Red Elemental Blast
I took the advice of some of the people here for this list, and moved another Entreat the Angels to the main deck, dropped Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, and the main deck Blood Moon.
Round 1 - Shardless Bant - Lost 1/2
Game 1: I kept a reasonable hand with only 1 piece of removal. I nuked his first dude, and he then played a Stoneforge Mystic into a Batterskull. No amount of topping or brainstorming could find me an answer... So I got skulled to death.
Game 2: Out: 4 Force of Will In: 2 Wear // Tear, Supreme Verdict, Path to Exile. My opening hand was 2 Swords to Plowshares, Supreme Verdict, 4 lands. The swords kept me alive to get Counter/Top active, and the Verdict sealed the deal after countering 2 Ancestral Vision. I killed him with Entreat the Angels.
Game 3: A very similar game to game 2, except we ended up going to time. I lost in the last turn with lethal angels unable to block a Stoneforge Mystic with a Sword of Light and Shadow. :(
Round 2 - Affinity - Won 2/1
Game 1: I knew he was on Affinity, so I kept a removal heavy hand. He got a fast start, but I was able to keep him off of Cranial Plating long enough to resolve a big Entreat the Angels. I swung lethal in one turn.
Game 2: Out: 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Misdirection, Rest in Peace In: Supreme Verdict, Path to Exile, 2 Wear // Tear, Detention Sphere. Again, removal heavy, but he ended up with two Cranial Platings out and just needed a creature. I was stuck digging for a way to kill him before he could draw a creature. He got there with a Stoneforge Mystic swinging in for 18 damage!
Game 3: I got counter/top active early, and floated Entreat the Angels and Wear // Tear on top of the deck until I had enough to cast a the Entreat for lethal. He just didn't get to resolve anything that game.
Round 3 - Deathblade - Won 2/0
Game 1: Very long game. I had a million removal spells, and all he played were creatures for a long time - so we were playing land/go for a while. I landed a Rest in Peace relatively early on, but didn't find an Enlightened Tutor till much later. I attempted to assemble the Helm combo, but he Abrupt Decayed the RIP in response, and I got a Snapcaster Mage off the top of his deck. The game finally ended when I resolved a lethal Entreat the Angels
Game 2: Out: 2 Force of Will, Misdirection, Terminus In: Wear // Tear, Blood Moon, Detention Sphere, Enlightened Tutor. Another long game! We both resolved a Jace, and mine got pinged with his Vendilion Clique before I got what I needed. My Jace was at 1, and the only card I had in hand was Enlightened Tutor. I tutored Blood Moon with no red sources, and prayed on a Jace brainstorm. I found an Arid Mesa, bounced his Clique with Karakas, then played Blood Moon. This left him with only a single plains. For the next few turns, we each fatesealed ourselves (he was ahead on the race to ultimate). Finally, the turn before he could ultimate me I topped into an Entreat the Angels. He ultimates his Jace, I respond by drawing with top and making 5 angels. The one card in my hand becomes my deck. To add insult to injury, the angles were exacies for his life total!
Round 4 I got a bye.... stupid small tournaments and people dropping!
So far I am pretty happy with how the deck is performing. It seems to have OK match-ups with a good variety of decks, and good match-ups on the decks that are coming in to beat up on Shardless BUG. I'm curious what everyone thinks the hand match-ups are, since my sideboard still feels iffy. I'd like to get it more focused on the important bad match-ups.
I think that's a pretty extreme comment, as that's a very fringe example. Nothing to back this up except what I read regularly, but I don't think that's the majority of Miracles decks by a long shot and if you do run into a jackass that built their deck that way I'm glad you're smart enough to flip 'em the bird.
Also, there was supposed to be a little humor in my post, as the conversation was describing how to politely tell an opponent that they're not going to be able to do anything. No, it's not always going to work as it's very situational, for example: if your G1 looks like it's going to go to time and there's nothing you can do that's when you, as the opponent, want to draw it out against a durdly Miracles player who needs to keep digging to find answers as to lock in a draw for the match. Not to mention what the actual lock is. If I have Jace out, a Blood Moon, and a CounterTop lock, that's probably a good time for you to scoop if you think you can get on to G2 with some time left. There are some people who will draw it out hoping for the Hail Mary topdeck. That's just plain dumb.
An example of where you (as the opponent) want to draw it out? Say you win G1, your Miracles opponents gets a good lock going quickly and there's still 20 or more minutes on the clock then it's a really good idea to move on to G3 as soon as possible, be back on the play, and hopefully have some time to get another win in.
I'm also a player who quickly recognizes when I'm losing and there's nothing I can possibly do to come back when my opponent has a ridiculous board presence or lock to prevent me from getting anything done. Yes, I have had people ask me: why are you conceding? My answer is always: "I can't raise the dead."
For reference, I play 2 Entreat the Angels, 3 Jace, and 1 Helm as my MD wincons, and am testing 2 Baneslayer Angels in the side as some additional help. I've been happy and don't regularly go to time.
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
ha ha~~! Shardless Bant, people including me are still trying to make it work. I'm proud of this guy's effort. However, SoLS, WTF. Come on, should be either SoFF or SoFI.
Congrats on the finish. Weird luck hitting Shardless Bant. I don't think they are terribly good against us, but the SoLS sounded pretty rough. I still think our toughest MU's are Goblins and Shardless BUG, in that order. 12-Post is bad for us I suppose, but few people play it.
Yeah I agree. It's one thing for them to be playing for a 1-0-1 victory, that's something different. It's a common mistake that newer players make to try to crawl out of very disadvantaged board states. Like for example, there are a lot of times when I'll have someone under CBTop lock and have a Jace on the field ticking up and they still think they can get out of it. That's fine if they want to do that, it'll just mean I have to play twice as fast for the both of us. More experienced players will usually know when they need to concede because draws early in a tournament are really quite bad for both players. More experienced players will also usually be more willing to concede if they hit time and their opponent has clear control of the game (although there are cases when taking the draw is fine).
To scoop or not is sure a thing of evaluating each players outs, but there's a spreading habit of scooping too early (and asking for peeps to do so) that resulted into players decreasing their actual threats like in MUD or Miracles just to have more disruption. I don't want to be Mike-Long'd and scoop to a player who can't even kill me anymore.
@Dzra: Happy B-Day!
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I don't know that make you think like that. ?:/
If you are a game behind against Miracles it's their Freedom of choice to reduce their threats and "stall" into a 1-0 win. You're free to scoop in their softlock anytime you Wish and lose 0-2 instead.
I was talking about the opponent of the Miracles player being ahead in games and the Miracles-Pilot expecting them to scoop in a softlock after reducing their own threads postboard or even in their Mainboard for more answers, because they can't kill their opponent in time to turn the game around.
For me, it's pretty insulting if some peeps assemble Counterbalance + Top and seriously ask me "game 3?"
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I used to play a U/W control list with 1 win-con -> 1/0, barely enough time to start game 2, so to speak.
If I was soft/hard locking my opponent, I would wait until the very last moment to kill him, because it is the very strategy of the deck.
Scooping can get you there while the contrary, will likely not.
If you are a game ahead. Well it is just a simple question: Can I beat him in game 3 or can I stall enough game 2 to prevent him from winning?
I don't consider the draw as an option.
With your opponent having so few win-cons what are you afraid of for not going in game 3 ? Seriously....
I rather win 1-0 than possibly have to draw due to time limit with him (Miracles) stalling (after giving up my game 2 without need) or lose game 3
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Thanks a lot!
I got 1st yesterday at a GPT for DC with this list:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus
It was at Mythic Games Monthly 1250$+ event that happened to also be a GPT for DC. Only 22 people showed up. Less people than usual, I think many of them went to SCG Indy.
1-2 Chris Song - Sneak and Show
Chris had the nuts both games he won. Did not even need to cantrip to have sneak, fatty, protection lands+Petal. While I kept slower but strong hands.
2-0 Cole ??? - Junk
Wasn't running Teeg or mom. G1 he didn't abrupt decay clique in response to its trigger and I dropped karakas next turn. G2 I think Terminus, Blood Moon and Jace might have been the only cards I cast.
2-0 Kevin McKee (Arianrhod) - Grixis Snapcaster control Reanimator
Kevin had a interesting really deck. It was kind of a snapcaster control deck with maindecked repeals that also had a decent sized reanimation package. We have a 35min Game 1. It was Epic. Kevin got to exhume a Griselbrand and draw 7, have an elesh norn with 2 snapcasters and have a Platinum Emperion but I was still able to fight through with removal and angels. G2 I don't really remember, but I think I won with angels, or we might have had a draw. I cant remember. I do remember never seeing relics.
"2-1" Timur Babakol (Zirath) - GWRB Goodstuff
Timur Scooped me in because I got paired down and there was no way he could top 8. We did play it out though, and he actually crushed me.
ID With Henry Decker (hdeck) - Mono Red Sneak Attack
We are seeded 7 and 8 and no one below us was X-1 so the top 8 was locked in.
Top 8:
2-1 Phalen Reedy - Punishing Jund
G1 he wins by default when he wastes and Lilys enough plains so I cant entreat and discards/destroys all my Jaces and punishing grove would take care of any blue X/1s. G2/3 I dont really remember but they were not too close. Some really good blind CB flips and Blood Moon won both games though. His only enchantment/artifact in his 75 was choke but I brought in wear/tear and killed a choke with it after dropping a moon.
2-1 Doug McKay - Something that most closely resembles NLT
If you have ever played McKay before you know his lists are always homebrews. His list had Goose, goyf, delver, daze, fow, cantrips... But it also had pyromancer along with probe and land grant and 2 GSZ. Also to note, he had zero enchantment removal or REBs in his SB. I dont really remember the order of our games but I think I beat him G1 with CB and angels. G2 I thought I had the game locked up. Hes got 2 cards in hand and I drop Jace with CB out. I have top in hand but play around Daze, keeping it till next turn. He double bolts me. My bad. G3 I have an answer to all his threats and kill him with angels.
"2-1" Eli Kassis - UWR Tempo
Eli does not need the GP byes and I make the mistake of telling him that I need them pretty bad. He knows this matchup well and we both know I am favored, especially post board. But he makes it sound like he is favored and offers to restructure the prize pool in a way that I didn't think was fair, I refuse and he wont just split and give me the Byes. We play out game 1 which he takes. With top, multiple fetchlands, brainstorms and ponder I see 1 removal spell the whole game and it is StpS. I die to an overextended board of pyromancer, snapcaster, and delver, when I had CB/top out and couldn't find a terminus with like 4 shuffles. I still think I am favored for each individual game, but being down a game, now the odds are against me. Eli reoffers his original idea. I negotiate it a bit so 1st place only gets slightly less prize money than if 1st and 2nd split, and he accepts. So I got 275$ in store credit, 2 GP byes and an awesome trophy.
The deck performed very well I think I want a couple of Arid Mesa's though, having only 4 white fetches is awkward sometimes. Also I might want a BEB somewhere to help against the increase in Sneak and Show and Pyromancer decks lately. Another card that impressed me all day was Counterspell. I might just up the counterspell number. Having a CMC of 2 is relevant as well.
Relic over RIP I still think is right. Jund was the only matchup were I wanted RIP, everything else Relic was better. Also, the draw on relic was relevant for miracles a few times were I would have had to use top and then crack a fetch (shuffling top) in order to cast an entreat and protect it.
The Maindeck EE was always awesome. I obviously would have preferred Venser or D-sphere/O-ring in the S&T matchup but I still don't think that it is a bad matchup and that my loss was just an anomaly.
Staticaster I only brought in against NLT and Dark Mav and I never got to use it. But in theory I still like him. He helps the Mom/teeg problem and in my meta, pyromancer is seeing a ton of play and he wrecks that strategy. He's also awesome against Elves and Goblins.
EDIT: Also, I should mention. That was the first time I had played miracles outside of playtesting. In my magic past I have played UWx Decks alot, and Top decks ALOT though. I made a small amount of really obvious mistakes that I still won through, like drawing terminus too quickly to cast it against NLT. And the only really "big mistake" I think I made in retrospect was keeping a slower Jace, Top, Counterbalance hand against Sneak and Show. Also, I think I mulled 4 times the whole day. Having 4 BS, 4 tops and 2 ponders was awesome!
Last edited by TheArchitect; 10-27-2013 at 06:54 PM.
Congrats...
I watched many of his rounds as I ended up in 13th with imperial painter at this tournament. From an outside perspective, the plating removal and must answer like jace against jund was the perfect strategy to then windmill slam blood moon and that was game. That player had hard removal and the strategy was similar to baiting counterspells before blood moon buys you all the time in the world to set up an entreat or jace win.
I understand EE for being better in all the Vial deck match-ups, but without Tutor, it appears inconsistent to me.
Disagree on the Relic of RiP. Dredge? Activate Relic once won't win you the game. Reanimator? Activate Relic once would buy you some turns. When you want to hate graveyard, please do so throughly, people don't have access to White would have to resort to Relic, but why do that when you can produce W mana?
Does the lone Blood Moon without tutor do anything over the course of the tournament?
As to the Invitational this weekend, Oarsman did well for the Legacy portion, but did not top 8, kinda unfortunate for this mixed-format.
The deck has 13 library manipulation cards, 7 of which are reusable without snapcaster mage. I never have a hard time finding ones of's like verdict or EE in esperblade which had 4 tops and a ponder less library manipulation and I had even less of a hard time finding them in this list. EE isn't just good against Vial decks. Its good against everything besides like Sneak and Show and I think the matchup it is best in is RUG. Its does almost everything at the cost of being a later game card (usually). It answers lily as well, which is a serious problem as well as problem enchantments/artifacts like chalice or choke.
I disagree. RIP is generally better against dredge or reanimtor. But it is not strictly better even in those matchups. Against tempo decks Relic is usually way better (in the snapcaster list). You can keep them off threshhold and exile your countered artifacts/enchantments to shrink goyf. And the biggest plus is that it doesn't cost you a card. It also means your snapcasters are still nuts against tempo decks.
I had 2 bloodmoons. And if you read the report youd see that resolving blood moon alone outright won 3 of the 4 games I brought it in. The games I cast it my opponents never casted another spell. In the GBx goodstuff matchup it is easily the most powerful card you can play. You just answer their DRS, wait till they tap in a way that they cant cast abrupt decay and you then you untap slam bloodmoon and they cant cast a spell for the rest of the game usually. If I didn't have them I know I would have lost G2 and 3 to Jund and gotten 8th.
You don't need Etutor to play good artifacts and enchantments, even as 1 ofs.
EDIT: Also, I should have mentioned. That was the first time I had played miracles outside of playtesting.
I just took Einherjer's Miracles list for a spin at a GPT: DC and got 1st out of 39.
Here's a brief summary:
R1 - Goblins (2-0)
G1: Swords and Snapcaster shenanigans keep his army under control until I'm able to set up an Entreat for 2 on turn 4. They get through for lethal with me at 2.
G2: I keep a greedy hand with Karakas as my only land with 2 Tops. I obviously rip a fetchland and hit every land drop until turn 6, using Karakas to bounce his Thalia until I'm able to set up Supreme Verdict and Jace into an Entreat for 6.
R2 - Elves (2-0)
G1: I keep a hand with 3 Swords, a Snapcaster, and a Top. I obviously spin into a turn 2 Miracle, which I play to mess up his T2 Glimpse. It gets there easily.
G2: I'm able to Pyroclasm his board early and set up Counterbalance lock.
R3 - Jund (2-0)
G1: I deal with her early threats, and she gets absolutely flooded. I stick a Jace and fateseal her off Punishing Fire. A late Liliana is not enough to deal with the eventual ultimate.
G2: I clear T1 Deathrite and T2 Bob with a Pyroclasm and am able to ambush a Bloodbraid Elf with two Angels, which also deal with her Liliana.
R4 - Venser Miracles (2-0)
G1: We both stick Counterbalances, I'm able to get a Jace earlier. The turn before ultimate, I go from scrying to fatesealing to take him off Entreat. (I had one on top myself.)
G2: He lands Clique and Karakas, putting me on the defensive and forcing my Jace to fateseal. My Wear deals with his Counterbalance. He grabs a Detention Sphere to deal with my Jace, and lands his own Jace and Venser. I find Engineered Explosives off top, using that to blow up his Sphere, then using the Jace to bounce his Venser in order to kill his Jace with double Snapcaster. I manage to trade Vendilion Cliques and win the game easily from there.
R5 - Death and Taxes (2-0)
G1: Karakas bounces Thalia for a few turns while I eventually land a Jace and entreat for 6.
G2: His first turn Aether Vial is met with a turn 1 Explosives. He misses a land drop, and I manage to get a fistful of removal, including a fused Wear/Tear to deal with an Oblivion Ring (on Jace) and a Batterskull after he draws out of mana screw.
R6 - Reanimator (1-1 or 2-1)
G1: I tap out for a turn 3 Clique in response to Entomb. He shows me a grip of Daze and two Reanimates, making my Force awkward (this was probably a punt). I am unable to find a fourth land or a Karakas (having toplocked myself) before Jin forces me to discard Supreme Verdict.
G2: He has absolutely no pressure, taking a Jace with an early Thoughtseize. This works to my advantage as I'm able to eventually stick Rest in Peace and Counterbalance, with Snapcaster Mage being used as Ambush Viper.
G3: I keep enough early taxing counters before establishing Rest in Peace and Counterbalance, with Snapcaster Mage racing Hapless Researcher. He plays a late Wipe Away on Rest in Peace in an attempt to go off, but I'm able to Brainstorm in response to Exhume to hit with Counterbalance, drawing a Karakas. I offer a draw while way ahead since I was paired down as the only X-0 and prizes were paid out based on Swiss.
I dropped out of T8 contention because I'm not going to DC.
I'm a pretty fast player, so none of the matches came close to going to time, but it helps to end matches in two. There are fortunately just enough threats to make sure that this usually isn't a problem with reasonably fast play.
Congratz on your result! I feel honored about you playing my list, I assume you like it? :D
As soon as Nemesis is out and has made some impact I'll post my new list, though I'd love to see what you others are working on... I was thinking about switching Pyroclasms to Supreme Verdicts while upping the REB-Count... what have you been thinking of?
Greetings
I haven't really taken too much time modifying your list, but I have been happy with it everytime I tried it. I do recall you mentioned that you might want some more red sources, and I am inclined to agree, but I'm not sure exactly what changes are warranted. Pyroclasm has been excellent for me, but I'd also like to bring them in against the likes of UWR Delver, Jund, Goblins, Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Maverick, etc., and all of them are capable of attacking your mana base.
I'm worried that when True Name Nemesis becomes a card, Pyroclasm will no longer be sufficient. It will probably see play in a variety of decks, but I'm most scared of its inclusion in Merfolk, if it's strong enough to give rise to that archetype again, as I consider Merfolk a terrible matchup for Miracles. In that case, I think we would need a few more Supreme Verdicts to further shore up that matchup. That comes at the cost of some liability against Gaddock Teeg decks, but those matchups tend to be slightly favorable anyway (and I personally prefer piloting Big Zoo most of the time, so I wouldn't mind that change!).
Yeah, Pyroclasm just won't cut it any more. My additional red source stems from Karakas, which reduced my outs to Teeg even more. I am not sure how much I like it but it might be necessary in any way. Another way is playing Mountain in the Sideboard, havn't done that in quite a while but it's still a possibility.
Greetings
I have been runing 1 moutain in the side and 1 Volcanic in the main for quite some time and it has been fantastic! You do not mess your main with too many non-basics and after side you have an indestructible red source. It is nice to have an extra land against tempo decks too.
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