[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[HammafistRoob]

All of the new cards are already spoiled. There is the black sweeper, I forget the name of it and I'm not sure if it's even Legacy playable.

2B. sorcery
As an additional cost to cast ~ pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until EoT.

[dontbiteitholmes]

We'll see about that. Just the fact that we think about that a cmc3 creature at 1UU might have a similar format warping effect like some of the best creatures ever printed at U, 1G and B/G tells you something about the strength. As I stated a couple of pages ago I do see it format warping as it gives blue so much it did not have before (hexproof/unblockable agressive finisher, best ground defensive), making other cards at cmc3 and cmc4 obsolete or much less attractive (Lingering Souls, Tombstalker, Geist, Jace).

Fair matchups will be a lot more about this guy. Imagine Deathrite into Nemesis. If you don't deal with deathrite you take 5 a turn. If you deal with deathrite you still either got to race nemesis or find one of the rare tools to deal with it.

Yeah, at the same time keywords "we think" don't have to point out the group think of the source has been wrong about this kind of thing many times before. He'll definitely see play but I think as far as paying more for him then the set he comes in, that isn't even out yet, sells for is beyond stupid. I think it's pretty safe to say at that point the hype train has left the station.

[lyracian]

Watch one of the new cards be an easy sure fire answer to Nemesis that can only be had by purchasing a different commander deck...That would be sleazy.

All of the new cards are already spoiled. There is the black sweeper, I forget the name of it and I'm not sure if it's even Legacy playable.

It is called Toxic Deludge.

[(nameless one)]

I think this card will be as format defining as Lorescale Coatl.

Usually, the format defining cards we currently have now have been shut down by skeptics. I mean remember the threads about Goyf (a Werebear that doesn't tap for mana and isn't consistently a 4/4. Why would I play that?), Jace (sorcery Brainstorm for 2uu seems too much), and Deathrite Shaman (too slow and graveyard dependent).

I'm not saying this guy is bad. But it's only going to see as much play as Snapcaster Mage right now.

[Barook]

I think this card will be as format defining as Lorescale Coatl.

Usually, the format defining cards we currently have now have been shut down by skeptics. I mean remember the threads about Goyf (a Werebear that doesn't tap for mana and isn't consistently a 4/4. Why would I play that?), Jace (sorcery Brainstorm for 2uu seems too much), and Deathrite Shaman (too slow and graveyard dependent).

I'm not saying this guy is bad. But it's only going to see as much play as Snapcaster Mage right now.

If it isn't going to ubiquitous, I'm going to be fine with it since it's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.

That said, I hate it when people compare cards to Lorescale Coatl. It was spoiled at , at which point it might have been pretty good. That generated a ton of hype. Nobody gave a fuck after it was spoiled at . The comparission is terribly lacking and pretty much the equivalent of Godwin's Law when it comes to new card discussion.

[AngryTroll]

If I put True-Name Nemesis, Temporal Mastery, and Lorescale Coatl into a deck together, do I just win Legacy?

That said, I hate it when people compare cards to Lorescale Coatl. It was spoiled at , at which point it might have been pretty good. That generated a ton of hype. Nobody gave a fuck after it was spoiled at . The comparission is terribly lacking and pretty much the equivalent of Godwin's Law when it comes to new card discussion.

Lorescale Coatl was spoiled on the Source at and generated massive amounts of hype. Note people talk about how crowded the 3cc slot is in the Thresh decks on the first page of that thread.

[Justin]

I agree that True-Name Nemesis may be over-hyped. It's still a 2/2 for three. Progenitus doesn't see so much play in Legacy anymore and it's a 10/10 protection from everything that you can power out of three (Show and Tell) or four (Natural Order) mana. Why get so excited about a 2/2 protection from everything that costs three? The closest things that we've seen to Nemesis is Etched Champion, which is a 2/2 for three protection from (almost) everything. Champion has access to Cranial Plating, but it's not considered a mandatory card in Affinity. I think Nemesis will see some play in decks that are designed to exploit its advantages, but I don't think it will set the format on fire.

[Julian23]

It's actually a 3/1 which changes the math. 3 power is kind of a magic number as it kills Jace right away, blocks and kills Mongoose and is generally speaking a much faster clock.

It may be overhyped. I hope it is.

[wcm8]

I agree that True-Name Nemesis may be over-hyped. It's still a 2/2 for three. Progenitus doesn't see so much play in Legacy anymore and it's a 10/10 protection from everything that you can power out of three (Show and Tell) or four (Natural Order) mana. Why get so excited about a 2/2 protection from everything that costs three? The closest things that we've seen to Nemesis is Etched Champion, which is a 2/2 for three protection from (almost) everything. Champion has access to Cranial Plating, but it's not considered a mandatory card in Affinity. I think Nemesis will see some play in decks that are designed to exploit its advantages, but I don't think it will set the format on fire.

It's a 3/1, not a 2/2.

Also, unlike Etched Champion, TNN is Blue (pitches to FoW, fits in a myriad of existing decks), and doesn't require a bunch of artifact jank surrounding it to 'turn on' its protection.

[Plague Sliver]

I swear I was thinking of Lorescale Coatl right before I clicked on page 11 of this thread. Guess I'll have to hold back the snide comparisons.

Every once in awhile I go back to the Coatl thread for some laughs.

So what's going to happen if Nemesis becomes ubiquitous?
- Everyone plays combo
- Everyone plays Miracle control
- Everyone "splashes" UU for Nemesis - can't beat 'em, join 'em?
- Bring on the "ban Nemesis" threads

Has there been a card in recent memory that's warranted an 11-page SCD thread, and seems so obviously playable?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I hope it won't be needed to play this card in Canadian Thresh, the only deck I decided to keep. Last time I've added anything new, it was a 3/2 flyer for 1 buck per set, and I'd really hate to spend even a cent more for any other dude.
Also, as I've missed the moments when the last two manabirds were cheap enough to purchase without hurting one's wallet (yep, I don't have neither Hierarchs nor Shamans), so if this stinky merfolk becomes another necessary card for the blue.dec, I'd be raging that I did not bought this expensive stable for dumpling prize.

[TsumiBand]

I agree that True-Name Nemesis may be over-hyped. It's still a 2/2 for three. Progenitus doesn't see so much play in Legacy anymore and it's a 10/10 protection from everything that you can power out of three (Show and Tell) or four (Natural Order) mana. Why get so excited about a 2/2 protection from everything that costs three? The closest things that we've seen to Nemesis is Etched Champion, which is a 2/2 for three protection from (almost) everything. Champion has access to Cranial Plating, but it's not considered a mandatory card in Affinity. I think Nemesis will see some play in decks that are designed to exploit its advantages, but I don't think it will set the format on fire.

The p/t oops aside -- I don't think this is apt comparison, for a couple of reasons.

Progenitus + SnT: A completely different ballgame in a different deck. SnT is going for the best fattest game-ending thing generally, right? It's hard to say that Progenitus itself is always the best tool for this job when Emrakul has very similar protection AND destroys six permanents when it swings, so even if there was a non-targeted answer for either fatty, Emmy makes it that much harder to cast AND it may as well be the same two-turn clock as Progenitus - even if we start with 20 life really most of us are starting the game at 19-18, because fetchlands - so the difference in turns between a 10/10 and a 15/15 is negligible and incidentally gaining life from some terrible effect is a non-issue.

Etched Champion: So first of all, now we're in a zone where p/t does matter, because Champion without an assist takes 3 more turns to 'Get There' than TNN. The 2 power/3 power gap matters a little. But also, there is still the matter of what the differences between "protection from all colors" vs "protection from every source target player controls" means. Artifact creatures can block the Champion; Pyrite Spellbomb can target it; and so on. Also Champion requires strict deckbuilding to activate its Metalcraft, while TNN can putatively go in several different decks - Stoneblade, Merfolk, Blouses, whatever - which means that the actual effective means of answering it on-sight changes significantly from deck to deck. An Edict might catch it solo - but if it's in Bant, there's almost certainly a mana dork to sac instead, if it's in Merfolk there are other fish to fry, basically Edict is just another "punisher" card and the opponent will always keep the best possible board position. Golgari Charm might kill it before it gets equipped in Stoneblade; Toxic Deluge or Infest could maybe get it early in Merfolk but probably not late (and then it has to resolve against their counters, right) - and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of "putative answers for answers for answers etc etc" because that's useless - it just bears mentioning that in Merfolk you're up against lots of counters. That's why people keep going back to Supreme Verdict as an answer, which has the same problems as the majority of 4-mana sweepers in Legacy. Primarily, that it costs 4. Which is typically too late.

I do agree that it isn't going to "set the format on fire" but really the fact that the opponent has so few methods of actually interacting with it, is going to make it just a giant pain in the ass to actually get it off the battlefield. And unlike Progenitus its controller is free to target it, so it's officially one of the best targets for all kinds of things that generally terrible outside of Hexproof.dec - Auras, Equipment, shit even like terribad Giant Growth or Berserk or what-have you is that much better with TNN in play. At the end of the day I think it will just be regarded as incredibly annoying to deal with since so much of the opponent's capacity to interact with it will depend on its context.

[rockout]

All of the new cards are already spoiled. There is the black sweeper, I forget the name of it and I'm not sure if it's even Legacy playable.

2B. sorcery
As an additional cost to cast ~ pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until EoT.

It's better than any other black sweeper besides massacre. It's too bad its an addition cost otherwise it might be really, really good. A mana cheaper so it can come down a turn earlier, maybe if it was blue or white, it might see more play. Who knows.

In my limited testing with TNN, the 3 cmc made is difficult to run in any strategy that was tempo orientated with wastelands and such. I made a UW list and I never wanted to tap out to cast it because my hand was full of insanely good cards and protecting my t1 delver just felt right.

[Megadeus]

It's better than any other black sweeper besides massacre. It's too bad its an addition cost otherwise it might be really, really good. A mana cheaper so it can come down a turn earlier, maybe if it was blue or white, it might see more play. Who knows.

In my limited testing with TNN, the 3 cmc made is difficult to run in any strategy that was tempo orientated with wastelands and such. I made a UW list and I never wanted to tap out to cast it because my hand was full of insanely good cards and protecting my t1 delver just felt right.

I mean current UWx Tempo decks run GoST right? The clock is not as fast as Geist, but it is more resilient (and considering how little most decks can actually interact with GoST that is saying something), and it is much better on defense if for some reason you need to go on block mode.

I think overall GB decks become a bit better if this guy gets good. Golgari Charm is already a real card, and I think it just gets better with this man being good

[alderon666]

I mean current UWx Tempo decks run GoST right? The clock is not as fast as Geist, but it is more resilient (and considering how little most decks can actually interact with GoST that is saying something), and it is much better on defense if for some reason you need to go on block mode.

I think overall GB decks become a bit better if this guy gets good. Golgari Charm is already a real card, and I think it just gets better with this man being good

Nemesis is a less all-in card. Geist is only/mostly good when you're ahead and you can remove their blockers. A topdecked Geist is freaking useless unless they're low on life and/or you're already ahead.

On the other hand, Nemesis is good at any point in the game. It will always be 3 damage once you untap with it and it can block anything that's not Progenitus or Emrakul. It's a trade-off, you lose early game power to have a better overall threat. It might not even worth it, maybe Wastelanding/Stifling their land + pressure from Geist/Delver is what win most games. But it might also not be true as the Nemesis give you a huge late game blocker and equipament carrier.

[troopatroop]

I think True-Name Nemesis will be as format defining as Lorescale Coatl.

I greatly disagree with you. I was also in the camp that Lorescale Coatl was good. I was wrong then, but it doesn't mean we're wrong now. It's a much different card, way more powerful, with a better manacost.

I'm gonna save that quote for years later, so you sound stupid in the future too.

Geist of Saint Traft can't attack into anything. Nothing can attack into this or block it. It's NOT CLOSE.

[TheKingslayer]

I think this is the point where we collectively tweet at Mark Rosewater until he is filled with overwhelming shame at the release of such a boring, awful, and powerful card design.

It remains to be seen what sort of impact True-Name Nemesis will make, but my god. It makes me want to stab my eyes out with rusty grapefruit spoons with how uncreative, unfun, and uninteractive it is.

[Megadeus]

I think this is the point where we collectively tweet at Mark Rosewater until he is filled with overwhelming shame at the release of such a boring, awful, and powerful card design.

It remains to be seen what sort of impact True-Name Nemesis will make, but my god. It makes me want to stab my eyes out with rusty grapefruit spoons with how uncreative, unfun, and uninteractive it is.

First a card that literally says draw your whole deck, now Protection from an entire player. #interactivemagicisfun

[Lord Seth]

It remains to be seen what sort of impact True-Name Nemesis will make, but my god. It makes me want to stab my eyes out with rusty grapefruit spoons with how uncreative, unfun, and uninteractive it is.

Unfun and uninteractive in a 2-player game, sure. But uncreative? It seems fairly creative to me. You can hate the card, but it seems dubious to argue it isn't at least creative.

Though like I said, I actually really like the card in a multi-player game, which is what it seems to be designed for (Commander is very often used for multiplayer). The ability to be impervious to one of your opponents but not the others is quite interesting, and it requires you to pick the opponent that you think the protection against would be the best. Which is, again, why I think the card should've required you to have multiple opponents for its ability to work.

[joven]

Progenitus doesn't see play because Emrakul has much more to offer. Also, Progenitus has a very high casting cost if you don't cheat him into play. And Progenitus can't carry Equipment! So very different story (in comparison to Nemesis).

Lorescale Coatl dies to Lightning Bolt (if it doesn't grow right after coming into play) and of course to most other removal. And Lorescale Coatl is multicolored which limits its uses. Also I think Lorescale Coatl is underestimated. Aside from converted casting cost Lorescale Coatl is nothing like Nemesis.

Nemesis is almost impossible to kill, is unstoppable, can kill walkers, can carry equipments and auras, and can even block very well.

Nemesis will at least be a giant pain in the ass that could make playing Legacy a lot more unfun.
And if somebody manages to build a strong deck around him, he could easily dominate the format.