I think if you're running GSZ, then 3 is fine.Originally Posted by maurobad2k4
-Matt
Awesome report Matt!!!
It was great to finally meet you. Thanks for all the help with the brew!
"We are at home in our games because it is the only place we know just what we are supposed to do."
-Camus
If you see me while playing legacy in the Seattle area, feel free to say hi! :)
Manipulato and Qweerios I really like your builds. I'm currently building a stoneforge/goyfless list.
Manipulato, I've few questions regarding your list:
1. Do you really need this forest? I've the feeling I would go for a swamp or a plain if I had to fetch a basic.
2. Why to play a random Karakas? In our list, we have nothing to tutor him. It sounds more like a legacy from KoTR versions. I would better protect my board with a fetch and go for a plain or a dual if needed.
3. Do you feel comfortable with only 3 Wasteland? In my list I will play one more Wasteland over Karakas and one more fetch over the Forest.
4. Finally, do you think 4 Thoughtseize instead of IoK/Thoughtseize main deck could be better? So far I have no clear idea, I'm just asking!
Congrats for your results ;)
Hi,
thanks! I suppose you are preparing for BOM Paris
Back to your question's:
1. Against blood moon decks (and they become more popular last time) the 1off forest is important to handle there chalice or moon effect's -> decay. Swamp or Plain is surely the first target for your fetches but sometimes it's sweet to have a basic forest.
2. Sure without knight its not very common to hit a karakas when you need it but its just a nice 1off and sometimes you draw it...We play so many lands that only produce mana and nothing else that the one karakas is not a disadvantage (especially because it produce white mana anyway).
3. The first turney i played (with 4 Wasteland and without a Forest and only 22 Lands) i took many many mulligans because of fucking hands and manascrewing, so I replaced 1 MB nonland card with a forest and cutted one waste and put a fetch in it and I never had problems like this again. Playing 4 Waste and 1 fetch instead of the forest is not a mistake or anything, it's just my personal feeling.
4. I think the 2:2 splitt is quiet good, sometimes you lose to many life because of playing 4 Thoughtseize and most of the time they have nothing with cc4 or greater. Sure you have a lot of lifegain in the board with SFM, BS, Jitte but we dont have to overstate it...I play additional 2 Thoughtseize in the SB for MU where the manacost are relevant (Storm, Miracle, Sneak Show etc.). Maybe a 3:1 split could be fine too...
But feel free to test other variants, it's not the only good list out there, but I like it a lot!
Greetings
Last edited by Manipulato; 10-22-2013 at 11:40 AM.
Currently playingEldrazi
Just picked up my play set of smiters....
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Thanks for answering.
Yes I will try a bit different version (but just a bit, manabase and sideboard, I'm gonna add Choke for sure ;)).
I was also thinking, if we are playing Lingering Souls, maybe Cabal Therapy could be an interesting choice :
- you can choose up to two single cards (and more if your opponent has several copies of one card in hand)
- you can see your opponent hand up to two times
- you don't lose any life
- it helps sac an annoying bob when your life total is 3...
- it's good with Liliana and against all discards spells as well (such as HtT)
To sum up this card is versatile and resilient.
Of course it's not great cast it blindly (howeber you can flashback it anyway).
So I'm gonna try both Therapy and HtT.
Ps : I'm not sure I will attend to the BOM
Cheers,
Last edited by Toy; 10-23-2013 at 11:45 AM.
Why do the current rock lists not play the full set of Lilliana's?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
i think that is probably because we lack enough synergy with her +1 ability
jund has punishing fires that has really good synergie with her
another card that would really have strong synergie is loam
dark confidant has good synergie with her, but needs to stay online
also lingering souls has good synergie with her.... but still i would prefer to cast both... normal and flashback from souls otherwise the effect is not that strong
other than that she is only really good if both players are allready in topdeck mode, but in this case she ROCKS
has anyone another possibility that synergizes well with her?
if we get lots of synergie with her i could immagine to go up to 4 lilianas, otherwise i would stay at 2-3
For sure. We're using her as a value-planeswalker, not as a real part of our gameplan. You're not really emptying anyone's hand like you are with decks that run Hymn To Tourach (ex. Jund). We're using her more like BUG: sacrifice a creature, then tick her up until you ultimate. We don't have Loam nor Souls main to really break the symmetry, whereas Jund has Fires.
I also don't want more 3 drops in this deck. Let's look at the curves of the other BGx decks.
BUG: 4 Shardless, 1 Pulse, 2 Liliana - 7
Jund: 4 Liliana, 1 Pulse - 5
Junk: 2-4 Knight, 1-3 Smiter, 0-2 Pulse, 2-3 Liliana - 5-12
We're on the high side of 3 drops, so running more dedicated black mana stuff if not ideal.
-Matt
On the mana curve issue: you fail to mention that jund plays 4 BBE and BUG usually plays Jace and Clique depending on the list.
With 4 deathrite shaman and 3-4 GSZ into arbor the 3cc spot is really our money spot. The BB is restrictive but the fact that she is always at least an edict + pseudo fog is worth 1BB.
After that, many people play souls and anyone that can find a slot should be laying at least one loam and as many libraries as they can.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
????????????????????????????????????????????
What does that mean?
I'm saying we're not running her as the mainstay of the deck, she's just value. Don't give a long line of ? without explaining what you want me to explain.
Sure, but how many? There's a huge different in average converted mana cost between our two decks. Sure, they play 3-4 BBE but mostly 1 and 2 drops, and BUG plays usually 2, sometimes 3 Jaces, with mostly 1-2 drops. Big difference.On the mana curve issue: you fail to mention that jund plays 4 BBE and BUG usually plays Jace and Clique depending on the list.
The problem with 3 heavily weighing down our mode concerning converted mana costs is that with your mana, you're only casting one or two spells per turn and you've maxed out your mana. With mostly 2 drops, it's closer to 2-3. That can be a big difference against an active Jace or whatever you need to run through.
-Matt
Matt,
Punishing Jund average CC: 1.5, list from SCG : 1.3
Shard-less BUG avge CC: 1.4, list from SCG Seattle
Junk avge CC: smiter list from previous page: 1.1(not counting batterskull) 1.2 with batterskull, matts last list avge CC: 2
These are the most recent lists on each forum, calculations done once and I will check the math again because even I was surprised that Junk was so low. Will edit with changes.
edit: Matts list added
With this information maybe we are playing too slow? I have not played Knight in any of my lists for a while not and it looks like everyone is slowly taking them out, even Matt is only running two and the smiter list that won the 43 man plays zero...opting for the SFM package instead.
Do we need to start looking at cards that cost three as two expensive?
BTW I still think that 4 Lilliana's is the way to go at this point, just need to decide what way to consistently break her is the best for us.
Options for Lilliana: Loam seems like it would be hot right now with BUG and Jund hardly playing any basics, waste lock would be out of control. Does nothing against elves and goblins though except feed Lilliana.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Are you average counts including lands? If they are, I'd redo the calculations without lands since they don't matter for what we're talking about.
-Matt
I run a SFM, Lili, Souls version and were very happy in our last 3 turneys at our local store (13:2).
I think loam & Souls are the best cards to support Lili. Replaced 3 Knight's after the 1st turney with a 3rd Lili a 3 Souls and a 4th Decay, very happy with it.
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/56809
Will bring the deck to a bigger turney in 2 weeks at munich.
Currently playing
Life is actually pretty good against goblins - they play way to many nonbasics and if you decay their vial they will never get to cast Ringleader of SGC. Or over the course of the game you discard these expensive cards with Lili or Therapy.
I am a big fan of Liliana, 2.0 in this deck. I play mostly miracles and this card simply slaughters them...
List from a 5 of 52 finish:
Creatures [18]
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Loxodon Smiter
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Instants [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [9]
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers [1]
1 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [23]
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
//BOARD
2 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Engineered Explosives
-Matt
Hi Matt,
that was my list.
changed the Maindeck +1 loxodon smiter -1 lingering souls
Sideboard now looks:
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 oblivion ring
2 golgari charm
1 engineered explosives
2 grafediggers cage
1 surgical extraction
1 faerie macabre
2 pithing needle
1 garruk relentless
lets see how this works for BoM Paris :)
I got a random bug to tinker again with the list. I've tweaked my last list a little bit over the last couple days but I haven't really had a chance to play for the past couple months (~4 from my sheet). How are the new cards? I can see a reason to Loxodon Smiter over/alongside KotR but I'm not sure what the meta has become and the only other card I noticed was Toxic Deluge - the -x/-x to all creatures for 2B and X life - from the next specialty set but it's a sorcery. What's been happening with the other decks (anything worth while)? Anyone able to share some insight?
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I am getting the feeling that smiter might be for reals with stoneforge back up... Knight and souls seem to be dated at this time.
The new set doesn't really have anything that will matter. The new 3/1 progenitus is dumb and will pop up here and there but frankly I think it is the least of anyone's worries. If they are playing a 6-7 turn clock instead of a jace/snapcaster/stoneforge any other bullshit than I am happy. We easily play golgari charm and infest type cards in the board so I don't see us losing to Merfolk any time soon.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
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