[DTB] Blade Control

[KobeBryan]

In merfolk it sounds great. In caw blade or whatever they're calling this deck now, I'll play it. But calling this card the blessing from the skies that saves esperblade maybe a bit much. I sure don't like the fan of having to become even more dependent on stoneforge mystic as our predominant means of winning. Don't get me wrong, Batterskull+ Idenity Nemesis = vigilant unblockable, indestructible, hexproof, and overall good guy. It'll eventually take cliques spot for me, given my metagame has some aggro decks and I use baleful strix to deal with delver.

Remember we've had access to elspeth, which functionally does the same thing. Although it cost one more, it's a that's resistant to removal planeswalker that can block as much as it wants in the form of 1/1 tokens and evasion/unblockability in making 4/4 flyers.
Yet most of us don't run it.

Anyways, they're going in my merfolk deck first.

I don't know why people compare this thing to clique. The only similarities is the power toughness and the cmc.

The two cards serve completely different purposes. If anything, this guy replaces geists.

[luckme10]

It'll replace clique's because they're fighting for the 3cc spot and I have thoughtseizes for discard and jace for... well jace.
As for Geist, I'm not running it. There's a decent amount of aggro in my meta.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's not going to replace Geist. It's an alternative to Geist, but I think Geist will maintain it's slots in the metagames it's good in. Six damage is nothing to sneer at when it has a comparable ability in Hexproof. Yeah, it's a weaker ability to protection: Player, but it's comparable in function and more aggressive in that it's double the damage if it all connects, and +1 if Geist doesn't and just the Angel does.

-ABC

[Final Fortune]

It's not going to replace Geist. It's an alternative to Geist, but I think Geist will maintain it's slots in the metagames it's good in. Six damage is nothing to sneer at when it has a comparable ability in Hexproof. Yeah, it's a weaker ability to protection: Player, but it's comparable in function and more aggressive in that it's double the damage if it all connects, and +1 if Geist doesn't and just the Angel does.

-ABC

The problem with that logic is that Nemesis is still good in the match ups where Geist is good and great in the match ups where Geist is awful, Jund etc.

[klaus]

I'll take any bet that Nemesis Man will destroy the Bazaar of Moxen event. I'm sure anyone who's done some commited testing would agree.
Remember when everyone bashed Jace back when he was spoiled? Or Tarmogoyf went for $3 for weeks? Same thing with this guy. It cannot be untrue anyway, since this my post #1000.
He's probably already on the watch list for bannings too, due to 1.) his stupid powerlevel 2.) he just ends interaction

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Requiring double U is harder to come up with than WU in a world with wastelands. I agree True-Name Nemesis is a problem. Honestly, I don't know whether to buy four or not simply because I have a sinking feeling. Will it be banned or will it be the next Goyf? I'm seriously hoping for banned. I don't want to have to put my 4th Terminus in Miracles simply because of this dude. Also, I honestly feel that 5 board wipes won't be enough after this guy gets going in any given metagame...Time to pull out the ol' Innocent Bloods.

-ABC

[luckme10]

Requiring double U is harder to come up with than WU in a world with wastelands. I agree True-Name Nemesis is a problem. Honestly, I don't know whether to buy four or not simply because I have a sinking feeling. Will it be banned or will it be the next Goyf? I'm seriously hoping for banned. I don't want to have to put my 4th Terminus in Miracles simply because of this dude. Also, I honestly feel that 5 board wipes won't be enough after this guy gets going in any given metagame...Time to pull out the ol' Innocent Bloods.

-ABC

I would be shocked if they banned it. This card won't be any more prevalent than Tarmogoyf circa 2007. Prices will be another issue. It rubs me wrong that they'd release a card of this caliber solely on a limited edition print run. Expect to see round 1 scavenging ooze prices levels immediately.

Double blue is not harder to come up with than WU for us. Because of Jace, our manabase is already designed to run double blue.

[Qweerios]

1UU is much easier to cast than 1UW. You can play him in any blue-centric deck (AKA: almost everywhere). Nemesis isn't even Legendary and pretty much invalidates Geist IMO. Taking away 2 power from Geist for Protection from Creatures fixes a lot of issues. Basically, you no longer have to play blue + white, or green to play geist or mongoose, and you no longer have to build your deck around them either (Threshold for Mongoose and removal heavy for Geist). Nemesis is static and has a lot of potential with equipments and exalted triggers. I think Nemesis will shift the metagame considerably and will find a home in Bant/BUG/Blade decks where he benefits greatly from Exalted triggers, SFM packages, mana acceleration, and can protect a Jace or an Elspeth from most ground assaults. We all know how good Progenitus was in Bant when it was allowed to use it, well now it's getting it back cost-efficient style.

I also think UWR Blade decks will be quite happy with Nemesis and will probably play 3-4 copies. They are strict upgrades from Clique for most scenarios as well because they are impervious to removal, and unblockable > flying. Clique being Flash is what makes her have synergy with this deck, and that's only a small portion of what makes her good. Cliques cycling ability is good as well and has plenty of fringe applications but as I mentioned in another post, she would still see play in Blade decks even if she remained exactly the same minus her cycling ability. Cliques ability is not what makes her great in our deck, its the combination of 3 evasive power for 3 mana with flash that makes her an excellent equipment carrier, PW hoser, and Mongoose/Geist blocker amongst other things. Nemesis also effectively replaces Strix in the defensive role where you trade the cantrip ability for a relevant body. He provides similar defensive capabilities with increased offensive ones. The main difference between Geist and Nemesis is that the latter doesn't need any support to help you stabilize or threaten your opponent, and offers the same kind of problem-solving abilities and synergy. OH and yeah.... Nemesis is not legendary so you can have more than 1 in play, which can degenerate quite fast.

I imagine a 4 SFM/3 Snap/3 Nemesis shell being in every Blade Control deck with red as the most prolific complementary color for some of the best Snapcaster targets (Bolts) and the most important metagame SB card that will become REB/Pyroblast. They are the cheapest and most efficient way to counter an opposing Nemesis. We will also see various Delver/Nemesis deck combinations that will adopt SFM, Goyf, or Pyromancer for instance to best complete their threat package. Cards like Supreme Verdict, Terminus, and Pernicious Deed will find their way in the 75s of every decks that can support them.

Looking at the way the meta is evolving with the printing of some of our latest legacy staples, I am quite disgusted by BUG combinations. Not only they have this 1 CMC PW in the form of DRS, the nastiest power creep known to magic in the form of Goyf, the hardest and most versatile removal ever printed in the form of Abrupt Decay, the latest unmanageable value card in the form of Shardless Agent, some ridiculous cantrips that put your opponent to a full stop in the form of Baleful Strix, but now they get the most non-interactive creature ever printed with a decent body. And that's all without mentioning some of the old broken cards they have access to, namely Hymn to Tourach and Jace...

If only Nemesis had a different mana cost or color such as 1RR, it might not be as broken... Or, you know, make it a 2/1 at least so it only sees play in Merfolk and not in every damn blue deck that wants to win with a creature.

[SirTylerGalt]

@Qweerios:

A few days ago, we were discussing the possibility of relying less on the graveyard. When lowering the number of Snapcaster Mages, the problem with UWr Blade was that we don't have good creatures to carry equipment, like Esper Blade does. Would Nemesis work there? Something like 4 SFM 4 Nemesis 1 SCM 2 Clique 1 Elspeth, with 3 RiPs post board to hose GY strategies?

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios:

A few days ago, we were discussing the possibility of relying less on the graveyard. When lowering the number of Snapcaster Mages, the problem with UWr Blade was that we don't have good creatures to carry equipment, like Esper Blade does. Would Nemesis work there? Something like 4 SFM 4 Nemesis 1 SCM 2 Clique 1 Elspeth, with 3 RiPs post board to hose GY strategies?

Yes of course. I think Nemesis is a definite 1-3of for Blade decks as he acts as an autonomous Geist. I am also all for the RiP plan postboard. The best way I found is to simply carry on with a regular Blade deck and pack 3 GY-dependant cards mainboard and 3 RiP sideboard so that I can interchange them when I wish to overlook GY interactions. Usually those 3 cards are Snapcasters or a combination of 2 Snapcasters and a Crucible.

[Qweerios]

Qweerios - I always enjoy reading your arguments for countermagic over discard. They are both convincing and compelling. The one benefit I feel discard does have compared to counters, one which you did touch on above, is preemptively answering cards that cant be countered and 2-1s like cascade. Im not a control player so maybe this is less relevant to control but discarding abrupt decay or BBE just feels much better than holding a counterspell when they cast it. Interested in your thoughts on this.

More often than not, the cards you want to actually discard are best and most reliably answered with a Spell Snare, Pierce, or hard Counterspell. Most cards you simply do not want hitting play tend to be at 2CMC such as Strix, SFM, Snap, RiP (for some versions), Counterbalance, etc. For all the matchups packing any of these cards, Discard is commonly a very short term form of answer. Spell Pierce is most effective early on to guarantee safe development and converts into bigger windows of opportunity against other cards you would prefer answered preemptively such as Planeswalkers. Of course there are cards like Shardless Agent and Bloodbraid elf that you would prefer discarded but I don't think discard is a reliable answer for those cards at all. If anything, any form of board presence that you can muster up, and somehow get value out of, will counteract cascade dorks. Snapcaster, SFM, and Strix are great examples. Blade Control isn't exactly the best deck at acquiring a board position, therefore capitalizing on discard is more difficult.

To use a conventional argument, if esperblade's most difficult matchups are pure aggro style decks and decks that can generate more card advantage, I can certainly see how discard may not be "enough" in today's metagame. As decks like BUG control can blow us out with card advantage and blue combo decks brainstorm away their valuable cards, discard alone becomes far less valuable. Having said this, the idea of having a proactive early game discard gives the player an ability to deal with cards that counterspells can't. Say for example, that abrupt decay which are, by your own words, being played as a 4of in a load of decks.

Perhaps more importantly, although esperblade has many lines of play, what are we doing in the first few turns? In order to put down a stoneforge mystic and protect it with a spell pierce we have to have 3 mana up. To me, this intangible that is far less appealing than casting discard to remove any choice spells that could impede the stoneforge mystic. This also gives us two options: Cast mystic on turn 2, or finding out why it would be a good reason not to do so. Wouldn't being initially proactive, allow us to see their hand, and thus making us more inclined to try to bait out their removal spells? Considering it takes 2 turns before mystic can produce a threat, I find using discard early, scanning the opponents hand, and making more decisions in regards to shaping my hand in brainstorm or choosing which equipment to take, to be very useful.

Ultimately, I believe discard spells give us more lines of play, allowing us more of an opportunity to play around opponents removal/counterspells. Discard over counterspells give us a stronger chance to squeeze stoneforge mystic in earlier to maintain board position.
In the end, is unilateral discard, in the form of say thoughtseize, really unanimously worse than running conditional counterspells?

For me, my decision can be based on one simple scenario, if you hand contains a stoneforge mystic and a counterspell, would you rather leave two mana open to potentially play that counterspell, or cast stoneforge mystic immediately after having already disrupted your opponent's hand?

Maybe I am playing the wrong deck.

I won't deny that discard is probably some of our best T1 plays, and that this deck doesn't have very many T1 plays outside of discard. However, I don't think this type of disruption is where I want to be, and not having any alternatives as having a thing such as a T1 play doesn't warrant the inclusion of what I see as a diluted game plan. In short, I prefer having no T1 plays at all if it means that I have to shift away from reactive answers at 1CMC to proactive disruption at 1CMC. As with any control deck, I believe the best thing you can do with your early turns is develop a sturdy manabase.

As far as "having to protect SFM" goes, I don't really care about backing him up with a Spell Pierce or a FoW per se. I simply believe that if you should protect your SFM, counterspells is the way to do it. When an opponent removes my SFM after I fetched an equipment, the first thing that occurs to me is that I have won on card exchanges. If my deck is built accordingly, and my plays are sequenced properly I should be able to make use of that extra card I have just profited. When it comes down to which line of play I prefer adopting under considerable pressure (meaning that T2 SFM is a priority), I prefer taking the reactive approach where I intend on answering the initial onslaught with a card such as a sweeper or making my way back into a game with a Planeswalker rather than relying on a tight sequence of plays involving T1 discard, and T2 SFM which may or may not be enough in most cases at thwarting my opponent's plays and has a very small window of opportunity to begin with.

An argument can be made about the necessity of hand information. It is as theoretically valuable as it is worthless at times. I think that the more experience you have with the format (which is to say a lot) the less hand information is appealing. I won't argue against the worth of hand information, rather against its necessity. This may affect the weight of hand information of the balance of discard vs. counterspells.

For me, playing Blade Control has nothing to do with landing a T2 SFM, it is simply something I can do when the situation is proper. As a control deck, I see SFM as a permanent mitigation tool against swarms, creature-centric strategies, and a resilient win condition against other control decks. I don't view SFM as a T2 play at all, in fact I don't think the pace of the game should be dictated by us before a Jace hits the field, because that's what playing a reactive deck is all about. You react to your opponent's plays until he has no more, and then you slowly take over while consistently answering any play your opponent can make, until your opponent succumbs. What you gain with discard you slowly have to make up as the game progresses.

My apologies for the double post.

[Tombstalker]

So continuing my endeavor to get more people into the format im now working on helping another brother get started and hes looking at control since what hes traditionally played could losely be defined as such.
Anyway im thinking of something along the lines of 'Nemesis Blade' control, or else miracles. Here I would need some assistance.
It seems from playing against each respective lists that miracles is the more powerful or more control oriented deck but far more durdley while blade control seems more aggressive but hinges more upon the success of SFM. Would this be a fair assessment? Im sure theres more to it than that though so any insight would be helpful.

Im considering helping him build a UWr shell along the lines of the lightning blade lists starting with something like this:

4 stoneforge mystic
4 true name nemesis
2-3 snapcasters/geist/clique/?

3 blades (SoFaI, BS, jitte)
8 spot removal (StP/bolts)
jaces, counterspells, cantrips, lands

From there im not sure if any sweepers are appropriate to include main and if so whats conventional wisdom, i.e. verdict or EE or clasm maybe?

[rancOr_]

That seems legit. I wouldnt run any sweeper main if youre going UWr, if you have both stp and lb that isnt needed. I am testing nemesis in my esper stoneblade replacing Lingering Souls and a V Clique- seems promising so far.

[Einherjer]

Did anybody saw this list? Looks interesting at least - though it won't have alot of merit to play/tech it now with Nemesis approaching...

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...de_with_j.html

Greetings

[SirTylerGalt]

Did anybody saw this list? Looks interesting at least - though it won't have alot of merit to play/tech it now with Nemesis approaching...

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...de_with_j.html

Greetings

I saw that Deck Tech. He has a lot of cool innovations.

I like Misdirection. I've wanted to try it in a Blade deck since I saw Joe Lossett playing 3 FoW / 1 Misdirection in his Miracles deck. I'm not sure playing TWO Misdirections MD is where you want to be, though... Especially when you don't have that much permanents to protect in the first place. I think Misdirection would be better in a list with more creatures. Maybe 4 FoW / 1 Misdirection split?

I also like Flusterstorm, but 2 maindeck seems like too much... Flusterstorm is dead in some matchups... I would go with 2 Spell Pierce or a split of 1 Flusterstorm / 1 Spell Pierce.

A friend of mine plays U/w Miracles with Back to Basics maindeck. It's pretty effective. But 3 maindeck seems like a lot, especially against decks that play a lot of basics... But it might be good if you don't have access to Blood Moon because you prefer the black splash.

Negate is cool, but if you are going to splash Black, you might as well play Countersquall. And, like Misdirection and Flusterstorm, it might be dead against some matchups :/



I've been thinking about upping the number of maindeck Supreme Verdict. The problem I have with that card, is that it sometimes takes you too long to get to 4 mana (e.g. against tempo decks that stifle your fetchlands, or fast aggro-combo decks like elves...). I think we need to find a way to stall our opponent's mana development, or a way to accelerate our spells. Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond are an option, but I've been considering Sapphire Medallion too... It lets you cast:

- Supreme Verdict for UWW
- Jace for 1UU
- Snapcaster Mage for U
- True-Name Nemesis for UU
- Clique for UU
- Geist for UW
- Venser for 1UU
- Intuition for 1U
- Accumulated Knowledge for U
- Repeal for 1 less


AJ Sacher experimented with the card a few months ago ( http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Intuition.html ). I think his version is a little too "durdly": you draw tons of cards but you don't really have a fast way to kill your opponent or improve your board presence. Maybe we need to remove the Intuition / AK engine for more threats or a SFM Package?

[ac3eb]

A few months ago, I remember seeing a couple of esper control lists do well with maindeck deathrite shamans. I've played with said version once before, and it's either a hit or miss. It smooths out the curve nicely but the problem I had with it is that there wasn't anything I really wanted to ramp into. Sure a turn 2 lingering souls was nice and a turn 3 Jace, but otherwise it was rather meh. Helped against delver decks. Naturally you lose a lot of power as a control deck though, since you have to cut 1 of's that are quite good: supreme verdict, ponder, engineered explosives, etc. With the printing of Nemesis, perhaps this is an idea worth looking back into?

[Kyle]

After playing everything else, I'm finally starting to pick up Esper Stoneblade, as it contains my 3 favorite colors and gives me access to my favorite card of all time: Vindicate. I don't know why it took so long for me to jump on.

So, what's wracking my brain is: why did this deck fall out of favor? Abrupt Decay? Deathrite Shaman? Shardless Agent running around?

[somethingdotdotdot]

It's all 3. Decay kills your jittes/swords; Deathrite negates one of the main card advantage engines of the deck (snapcaster); and shardless agent just gives more card advantage than this deck does.

[rancOr_]

After playing everything else, I'm finally starting to pick up Esper Stoneblade, as it contains my 3 favorite colors and gives me access to my favorite card of all time: Vindicate. I don't know why it took so long for me to jump on.

So, what's wracking my brain is: why did this deck fall out of favor? Abrupt Decay? Deathrite Shaman? Shardless Agent running around?

It is and always has been one of the best decks in the format. U have all the tools u need. I dont see why some pple would say that Shardless bug is better. Its such a greedy deck and auto loses to like a single moon effect. Also esper has a great combo match up. Nice to see u pick up the deck, it is very skill rewarding.

[mike1987]

I really like Michael Bernat's list from the invitational.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=60172

With so many shardless bug and tempo running rampant in my metagame, baleful strix is the silver bullet for this deck. If they destroy it, you are still a card ahead.

I did cut some of his discards for more lingering souls though. What can i say, i just love that card