[Primer] Elves!

[trevaftw]

Went 4-0 again tonight at weekly legacy.

R1: 2-1 Death and Taxes
R2: 2-1 Counter-top
R3: 2-1 ANT
R4: 2-0 Esper Stoneblade

[trevaftw]

So how do you feel about Envelop? Am I correct in thinking this is a combo hate card that is a little more flexible vs. decks with Show and Tell?

If you want a counter versus SnT I'd say use swan song

[andrebonotto]

If you want a counter versus SnT I'd say use swan song

I know you proposed the use of Swan Song specifically against SnT, and not in any other MU, but nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to offer this thread a quick Copy+Paste from blind's report (and his subsequent reply) at the french forum, to add to our considerations about this card:

"(...) J'affronte Elves round 4, je perd la g1 et mull à 5 à la g2 dans 3 lands double Envelopp et je gagne cette game. (...)"

(TRANSLATING: "I played against Elves on Round 4, losing G1 and mulling to 5 on G2, where I kept a hand with 3 lands and 2x Envelop, which ended up winning me this game.")

and:

"(...) Ouais clairement j'aurais perdu si avait été swan. Le plan Aggro est loin d'être négligeable et malheureusement on joue des 1/1. Je garderais Envelopp."

(TRANSLATING:"(...) Yeah, of course I would have lost if I had Swan Song [in place of the Envelops]. The aggro plan is far from negligible and unfortunately we play 1/1's. I'll keep the Envelops")

Despite the difference in context, my purpose with this Copy+Paste was to call atention to the mentioned potential of the aggro plan on these sort of "Racing MUs" (I mean, after we have first delayed them, of course), a circunstance in which a free 2/2 blocker could buy our opponents just as much time as we take from them through disrupting their previous spell, since it blocks pretty much all of our non-Hoof/Ruric creatures, hence preventing us from making our clock press them.

Thoughts?


(P.S.: And by the way, blind, congrats for your 15th place at the BoM! )

[blind]

Thx andrebonotto :)

I stoped mtg for 2 years and I didn't test for this Event. I like U splash because Combo-Deck are bad Match-Ups.

Envelopp > Swang because you can win with 1/1 and your hate VS Combo Deck.

[Dice_Box]

I am not convinced that a Counter is any better for us than discard is and discard has far more reaching targets.

[blind]

Combo play Brainstorm. ;) Discard + Counter > Discard + Discard

[Dice_Box]

I have 7 discard spells I bring in, Brainstorm is always my first named target unless I have to hit something else right then and there. Also if I slow them down a turn than that is a turn that I gain to combo off myself.

[Havoc]

while it may be true that discard+counter is better i dont believe it to more effective than discard+discard in this case . if you happen to combo off and not have gone for the trop or blue source than its a dead draw. unless your playing something with lots of land destruction, your going to go for your bayou so you will have the black source. not that blue is bad and if you like it play what you like (i run a 2 mindbreak trap and 2 thorn in my sideboard just because i like it) but that flavor is not for everyone. most players like the GB splashing W or R. personally id never run U.

[Water_Wizard]

Congrat' Julian ! Very nice Job !

I ended 15th for the Main Event Legacy BoM 8, with this Decklist :

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 3 Envelopp
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ruric Thar

Day 1 : 8-1

Vs Patriot win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs ElfBall win (2-1)
Vs Maverock win (2-1)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Pikula win (2-0)
Vs AnT win (2-0)
Vs Patriot win (2-1)

Day 2 : : 3-3

Vs AnT lose (1-2) top 8
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Rock Wish CotV win (2-1)
Vs AnT lose (1-2) Daragaz 10th
Vs OmniShow win (2-0)

What's your 60th card?

[blind]

1 Scavenging Ooze sorry. ;)

[Kayradis]

Alright. 3 days until I depart for DC.
Im reviewing tons of gameplay and vids.

Expect me to call an audible 3 hours before round 2 ;)

[andrebonotto]

while it may be true that discard+counter is better i dont believe it to more effective than discard+discard in this case . if you happen to combo off and not have gone for the trop or blue source than its a dead draw. (...).

I agree that there are many situations in which 'Discard + Counterspell' = 'Discard + Discard' (I mean, they have the same effect and effectiveness) .

But there are also those (marginal?) situations in which they don't equal.

In my case , for example, I'm interested on the first option for I'm a little worried about the Show and Tell MU. It sees a lot of play around here, and the players have adopted Leyline of Sanctity as a standard SB protection, bringing it in against Elves too.
Because of this, for many times my discards sat useless on my hands. The split with the counterspell seems superior in this case.
Hence, if I get the chance, I think I'll try the split between Discard + Counterspell, in order to try to gain an edge on this specific MU.

Now, I wonder about which counterspell to try. Would Spell Pierce be better than Envelop?
In theory, the first can disrupt more targets than the latter (e.g.: Spell Pierce also hits artifact mana sources from Storm Combo) ...

[Dice_Box]

If I was to run a counter, Spell Pierce would get the nod. It's the second most effective One drop counter behind Flusterstorm and when you need to hit a wide range of targets, it can be better.

I say this while also saying, this is not a play I would make.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Benjammn]

I get the sentiment that Envelop is trying to convey, but are there other cards that hurt Sneak n' Show better? Preferably something that doesn't involve a different splash? I'm inclined to think Thorn/Thalia might do well, but they don't gel well with discard.

While I haven't played against Sneak and Show in a while, it seems like a perennial favorite for those wanting to play in the GP without much experience. I fully expect to see it at the GP and I don't like the matchup currently...

[Havoc]

I agree that there are many situations in which 'Discard + Counterspell' = 'Discard + Discard' (I mean, they have the same effect and effectiveness) .

But there are also those (marginal?) situations in which they don't equal.

In my case , for example, I'm interested on the first option for I'm a little worried about the Show and Tell MU. It sees a lot of play around here, and the players have adopted Leyline of Sanctity as a standard SB protection, bringing it in against Elves too.
Because of this, for many times my discards sat useless on my hands. The split with the counterspell seems superior in this case.
Hence, if I get the chance, I think I'll try the split between Discard + Counterspell, in order to try to gain an edge on this specific MU.

Now, I wonder about which counterspell to try. Would Spell Pierce be better than Envelop?
In theory, the first can disrupt more targets than the latter (e.g.: Spell Pierce also hits artifact mana sources from Storm Combo) ...

i completely agree with you. ive only recently started playing elves (before i was an avid player of turbo eldrazi) and i see what your saying. i was only commenting on the fact that elves as a whole has really pinpointed itself into GB and a splash of other colors and and simply U is the weakest of splashes in my opinion. i dont have many people in my area that play decks that warrant the need to run a U splash. of course this is all subject to change. with toxic deluge and true-name nemesis showing up elves may have to evolve into a stronger blue splash to cover their presence. as for leyline i said before i run thorn and trap and a maindeck ruric to stop the other combo matchups. the games that discard comes in against for me are sneak and show, turbo eldrazi, etc. if i was going to run a counter spell, spell pierce or swan song both had homes in turbo eldrazi so id go with what i know has come thru for me in the past. i see that swan killing me but id hope that if i use it im going to win next turn and only need to survive

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Deck is all double sleeved and partially foiled (you know how hard is it to find effin' foil Glimpses?)

Im pretty sure I can fight thru anything but still have reservations against UWR.

I don't face that match up too often around here, so anybody got ideas for SB options?

[danyul]

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

[Tormod]

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

I agree with you 100%

Maybe they have some special technique against Elves that I don't know about. But facing a tempo deck with 7 md spot removal has been really rough for me. 3 of these list popped up at my local, and I've switched to another deck until I can figure a way to beat them or until their presence has diminished. Maybe Thorn of Amethyst is something to be looked at again? *shrug*

[trevaftw]

Against UWR/RUG delver I bring in 3 abrupt decay, 2 scanvenging ooze, 1 progenitus (I run 4 NO main. keep all in). I side out 2 heritage druid, 1 craterhoof behemoth (leaving 1 ruric thar plus the sided in progenitus), 2 nettle sentinel, 1 quirion ranger

[chinEsE girl]

At least from my experience UWR has the same weaknesses as RUG, which is their reliance on delver to kill you before you can overcome their removal. Stuff like stoneforge or lavamancer are annoying, sure, but those things don't kill you very quickly. It's the god damn delvers that do. So I like to bring in all my decays, shaman, ooze, and any other anti-fair cards I have in my board. My game plan is just decay their delvers (sometimes lavamancer or equipment if need be) and just generate more cards than them over a longer game until they lose. From my perspective, UWR is just another delver deck, so if you can beat RUG consistently I feel that you should be able to beat UWR as well.