Ah that was close to top 8. But anyway, congrats for the stellar finish.
Regarding the three problem matchups that you mentionned, I can assure you that GW Maverick is nearly unlosable after boarding and the Jund matchup is in our favour, too. DnT is rough but even.
Against all 3 decks more shroud creatures (TNN, Reanimate) or just playing more creatures (Ashiok) help. Versus DnT and Maverick 2 Fire Covenants and 1 Dread of Night/Golgari Charm solve all your problems. Compost is insane versus Jund. So there are more powerful tools here to fight these 3 decks. RUG has an awful midrange MU and bUrg is solid there.
Playing Forked Bolt seems reasonable but I do not like sorcery speed removal. How about Tarfire, Izzet Charm or Dismember or even Disfigure? :)
I feel you in your 9th finish. I've been there a lot of times.Originally Posted by sherko7
Well I got 9th. 50-60 players played. Lost to Omnitell (G3 I had Pyroblast and double FoW but lacked a blue card, he had a Pact anyway for the 2nd FoW) and then lost my win and in against Junk (mull to 5 games 1-2, mana screw game 3). The deck is well positioned against most of the decks to beat, unfortunately loses to most decks trying to beat the tempo meta here (Junk, Maverick, DnT). Also managed to draw 3 DRS twice, one of them against combo. Not really a good day for me. Not planning to post a report, starting to feel like I need to cut a color, but we'll see. The deck's pretty solid, albeit it lacks the consistency of RUG or BUG. The deck would sometimes feel clunky, the double/triple DRS draws are one of 'em. Sometimes Decay can be a pain to cast as well, and then a couple of times I'd feel like 2 Decays are not enough. One thing I'd definitely want in the future is to grab True Name Nemesis. That solves a lot of the deck's issues, but we'll see! Pretty hard to track those down locally.
Don't get me wrong, the deck still packs a punch! Need more work on the board probably. Forked Bolt was a blast! Definitely worth cutting 1 Snare. The Pithing Needle in the board didn't really come up so I don't really know if it's worth it.
Let's get back at them on December one. I hope to see you and your brother there!
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
I don't like Tarfire simply because we only play 2 Goyfs, and most of our opponents play 4. I've tried Izzet Charm, its a bit too clunky. 1cc removal is what I need. Dismember and Disfigure would work, but I really like the possible 2-for-1 that Forked Bolt provides.
I really wanna play this Dec. 1st but I might have a family gathering to attend, but we'll see!
On a sidenote, I'm working on a whole new build. Not sure if it would still belong in this thread but:
Creatures (12):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy/Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
Lands (18):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
Cabal Therapy and Stifle are interchangeable. They're both kinda dead late game, but at least Stifle can be exiled to FoW. The build maximizes the potential DRS and brings along Pyro for the ride. T1 DRS, into T2 Pyro into Cabal Therapy is nasty. Don't even get me started about what happens if you have Probe and even Daze back-up. This is a rough list I came up with during work, and will surely test it out soon. I think that with Pyro, we should prefer to be pro-active rather than reactive, which is why I prefer Therapy over Stifle here. Let me know what you think. I know Sasan doesn't like Pyro in bUrg. I didn't like him before, but he maybe worth giving a second look.
Funny you said that, Sasan. Yesterday at a 22-person weekly at my friendly local game store I ran the same main as sherko7, but with a Badlands in place of the second Volcanic Island (which I'll discuss a little below), and I became annoyed at least once over the course of 5 rounds because I couldn't use Sorcery-speed Forked Bolt to pull combat tricks. I do agree that the two-for-one potential of the card is very high right now, but I've swapped it with a Fire // Ice to preserve that aspect, while giving me Instant speed and pitching to Force of Will like the Spell Snare it replaced. I'll have to see with testing whether the one additional mana to cast Fire versus Forked Bolt is a major hindrance, and I have no idea if Ice will ever come in handy.
Regarding the Badlands over the second Volcanic Island, it occurred to me that at least one of our turn-one plays -- Nimble Mongoose -- would require green out of the gate, ideally with a Tropical Island for Daze support. Therefore, in order to be able to cast Abrupt Decay on turn two should the need arise, as well as get our fourth color online with only two lands in play, the next land would need to be a Badlands. A turn one Volcanic Island is suboptimal because it won't let us cast Abrupt Decay on turn two, nor can we have all four colors online turn two unless we added a Bayou, which still wouldn't help us cast the Decay. The only thing I dislike about the Badlands is it can't be fetched with a Misty Rainforest, requiring me to flip the Rainforest/Tarn split to 3 of the former and 4 of the latter. I know this topic has been discussed before, both in the primer and in the thread, and I'm not looking to dig up any old grudges, but that's my reasoning for the change. If there are things I have overlooked or angles I failed to consider, please bring them up. :)
I also had the chance to play against True-Name Nemesis in two of the rounds, both times in Shardless BUG. Those two rounds were the only ones I lost, and I only lost them because of TNN. It's my opinion that printing that card was a bad idea, not because it's an unstoppable blowout (which it can be if you haven't specifically built to hate it and cards like it), but because it's simply not a fun way to lose. I was running the stock sideboard, but with the frustration of losing two very un-fun rounds, along with the strong performance of the card at SCG Dallas yesterday, I think I'm going to up the Golgari Charm count in the board to two, or possibly swap it with Toxic Deluge. I don't know what I'd want to drop to make room for either, though, so I'm open to any and all suggestions. I think that TNN is going to be out in force at Grand Prix Washington D.C. next weekend, and I'd like to make sure we have the best answers available, so let's discuss!
Other than the problem posed by TNN, a problem which affects everybody, I think this is an awesome deck with plenty of answers and opportunities to reward tight play, and I'm really looking forward to running it in DC.
I wanted to post some results from Legacy 2-mans on MTGO. I played 10 matches and am 7-3. With a little tighter play, I think that I could have been 8-2. I'll briefly discuss my match-ups and then discuss my questions and comments with bUrg.
I'm running the stock list, with the only change being 1 Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard over the Ashiok. The GDC is for the Elves match-up, after reading this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-uwr-delver/ and it did save my butt once.
Burn; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games
I was able to get early Delvers, followed by Goyfs. My opponent probably made some play mistakes by directing early burn at my dome and not directing early burn at my Delvers. It was nice to be able to run the whole deck off of two mana, minimizing the Price of Progress blowout. Additionally, I don't think that this opponent ran Volcanic Fallout, which would have been a beating. Life gain from Shaman's kept me in at least one of the games. My opponent also had some land-heavy draws and needed to mulligan a few times, which helped.
Shardless; 1-0 matches, 2-0 games. Not much to say. I think that my opponent made some poor decisions, as he chose to double FOW a turn 1 delver (I won the roll, land, delver, he FOW's, I Daze, he FOW's again - okay, you can have a mull to 3). He has a mana-heavy draw game 2.
12-Post; 1-1 matches, 2-2 games.
The first time I played against this deck, I was absolutely blownout. He was able to hit his land drops while I built an army of graveyard-dependent creatures (DRS, Nimble, Goyf). I was attacking into him and had him on a 2-turn clock. He drops Bojuka Bog, which I Stifle. I attack him down to 7, with lethal on the board, adding a Goyf (my board is DRS, threshed NM, threshed NM, and Goyf). He drops Vesuva, copying Bojuka Bog - there goes my graveyard. He then casts Trinket Mage for Tormod's Crypt, nuking his own graveyard. My once proud army becomes a 1/2, 1/1, 1/1, and 0/1, with his 2/2 Trinket Mage ruling the board. I don't draw any burn and he cast Primeval Titan the next game and I scoop.
In the games that I won, I was able to use Stifle an Expedition Map and Wasteland to buy time before slowly dwindling his life total. Glimmerpost hurts, as it buys extra turns, and thus, extra land drops. I boarded in Ancient Grudge in this match-up, as there were plenty of targets. He ran Pithing Needle main (which I needed to FOW game 1) and he also ran Oblivion Stone, along with Candelabra, Expedition Map, and the Trinket Mage package, which I assume included Chalice of the Void.
Elves; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games.
Grafdigger's Cage saved my butt, as he had Natural Order in hand. GDC does a great job neutering GSZ and NO. Delvers are key in this match-up, as the ground crew doesn't do much except for blocking. In both of my rounds against Elves, they boarded in Thoughtseize, which I though was odd. Personally, I don't think that the deck diluting is worth it, but I'm not a master Elves pilot. Two of my wins were very close, with needing Delvers to blind flip or else face death - nail bitters. I also tried boarding in Dazes on the play, as I think that the tempo boost can be worthwhile - I removed Stifles and an extra Mongoose. However, Stifle can be helpful in targeting Craterhoof's cip ability.
RUG; 0-1 matches, 0-2 games.
The first game, he won the roll and just outdrew me. He hit 3 Goyfs with minimal cantripping, which was just too much for me to handle. In game two (which I reviewed via video playback), I made some poor sequencing choices and allowed him to block my un-threshed Goose with his unflipped Delver, which was a poor decision, in retrospect. Had I sequenced more optimally, I'm certain that I could have forced a game 3.
Bant Enchantress; 0-1 matches; 1-2 games
This match-up ran the RiP, Energy Field, Helm combo with Emrakul as a back-up plan. He was running at least 3 RiP main, which just neutered my army. Game 3, he dropped 2 Carpet of Flowers, which I chose to battle over because he was stuck on one Forest. Anyhow, he pulls out of it before I can apply enough pressure and I die to tentacle monster. The new legends rule also helps him out as he can use two Serra's Sanctums per turn.
High Tide; 1-0 matches; 2-0 games.
He gets stuck on land in game 2 and I am able to Flusterstorm his cantrips to keep him locked on 1 land (I had another Flusterstorm in hand and it was clear that he was digging for land).
My thoughts/comments about the deck. Overall, it was very smooth, although I had good draws for the most part (only needed to mulligan a handful of times). This deck does surprisingly well against combo and midrange, although falters against slower decks if it cannot run enough tempo and does not find an early beater. I did have trouble finding black during the burn match-up. I like fdiv_bug's suggestion of swapping a Volcanic Island for a Badlands, and I might try that, but I'm wary of having too many non-Island lands.
This deck is extremely susceptible to graveyard hate, and cards like RiP mean that we only have 4 creatures that have the potential of greater than 1 power. For that reason, I will be looking to broaden the threat-base (TNN) or increase the Abrupt Decay count.
In any case, I feel that this deck is finely tuned and does have a great game-plan against most, if not all, of the top-tier decks. The sideboard advice in the primer is very much appreciated. I tried some variations, like leaving in Daze versus Elves (which I did not like) and bringing in Ancient Grudge vs. Twelve Post, and generally, I think that the sideboard options are very solid. I'm looking forward to playing against more of the creature-based decks, like Death and Taxes and Maverick. I would also like to play against the mid-range/control match-up, in either Esper and/or Miracles.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I don't like Tarfire simply because we only play 2 Goyfs, and most of our opponents play 4. I've tried Izzet Charm, its a bit too clunky. 1cc removal is what I need. Dismember and Disfigure would work, but I really like the possible 2-for-1 that Forked Bolt provides.
I really wanna play this Dec. 1st but I might have a family gathering to attend, but we'll see!
On a sidenote, I'm working on a whole new build. Not sure if it would still belong in this thread but:
Creatures (12):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy/Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
Lands (18):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
Cabal Therapy and Stifle are interchangeable. They're both kinda dead late game, but at least Stifle can be exiled to FoW. The build maximizes the potential DRS and brings along Pyro for the ride. T1 DRS, into T2 Pyro into Cabal Therapy is nasty. Don't even get me started about what happens if you have Probe and even Daze back-up. This is a rough list I came up with during work, and will surely test it out soon. I think that with Pyro, we should prefer to be pro-active rather than reactive, which is why I prefer Therapy over Stifle here. Let me know what you think. I know Sasan doesn't like Pyro in bUrg. I didn't like him before, but he maybe worth giving a second look.
Although I think that your list will do fine, I strongly believe that you need some shroud/hexproof creatures in that build. The reason why UR Delver never took of was the fact that they never had shroud creatures and therefore lacked constiency - now they have TNN ;-).
I never said that Young Pyromancer is bad in bUrg. But I stated that the card needs to be a 4-off and therefore there is no space for him. The fact that we play rather reactive spells and not much burn, Therepies or Probes was a problem, too. And Goyf is always a better topdeck. Therefore YP in bUrg is meh and Goyf is always ok or striclty better - especially as a game-ending 2-off bomb. But feel free to try YP. Even some RUG lists use him to a certain degree ;-).
Hey, good finish mate :) Regarding the Badlands versus Volcanic Island topic: With Taiga and Badlands we will have more often situations where land and cantrip in the opener is a direct mulligan if the land is Taiga, Wasteland or Badlands. With Badlands the odds are far highter to take a mulligan. Therefore I would never play more than one non-blue dual in bUrg. Furthermore you stated another problem: Not all our fetchlands can get Badlands. A great advantage of bUrg and RUG is the ability to fetch everything with every fetchland. Let us not lose that advantage. I discussed it in the primer that Badlands may be an alternative to Taiga, but not to Volcanic Island.
Funny thing is that I tested in recent weeks a changed mana base : - 1 Volcanic + 1 Fetch. It worked great as we do not need that much red sources. But that testing was before the print of TNN. Now REBs from the board are crucial and one elegant way to fight TNN. Having red mana as soon as possible is needed. Yes I know that a fetch can get you red mana, too. But I don't want to compromise on red sources in the new unknown TNN meta.
Regarding TNN: If TNN becomes a thing after the hype is over we can think about exchanging one Fire Covenant with Toxic Deluge. Then we would have 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluxe, 2 REBs versus Nemesis. That should be enough. If you do not want to cut Fire Covenants (a one-sided Wrath of God at instant speed is perhaps still a must and therefore should still be a 2off), you can cut Ashiok for the second Charm or first Engineered Plague or an Edict effect or a third REB. You see we have tools to fight TNN.
But honestly I think that our current list as good chances versus Nemesis, too if we adapt our playstyle. I read plenty of tournament reports of players piloting TNN and watched every video available etc..My conclusion of all this is that the players rely very much on TNN and have tuned their decklists in such a manner that they cannot afford *not* to have at least one TNN active per game. That means that we must spend all our ressources and spells in preventing TNN. In the maindeck have 4 Forces of Wills, 4 Dazes that are kept alife with Stifle and Wasteland (come on, TNN is still a 3-Drop). In the sideboard we have 2 REBS and one Golgari Charm. Ashiok is a Nemesis magnet and can lead to a 3-turn-delay of the clock of Nemesis. So we have pre board 8 tools to fight Nemesis and afer boarding still 8 ones (assuming that some Dazes or Forces are boarded out), but after boarding our tools are more effective. With our cantrip action and the fact that the opponent cannot run more than 4 copies of TNN I think that we have a mathematical advantage here.
Thanks a lot for the kind words :)
Having more threats that are not susceptible to gravehard hate is always nice. We have the same problem versus RIP as RUG does. That is why our Spell Snares are gold-lettered in these matchups. I do not think that upping the Decay count will help. Once RIP hits it is very hard for our Goyfs or Mongeese to become strong fast enough even if we destroy RIP. We need to counter it or Stifle the trigger if we have reached Thresh. A 14th creature from the board that dodges graveyard hate is fine. Play Clique or TNN or (as Carsten Linden and I suggest) Ashiok. All of these options are fine. Golgari Charm from the board answeres a resolved RIP, too, but I think you already know that :)
Btw, versus 12-Post try this boarding if you like:
//Turbo Eldrazi/12-Post
//- 3 Snare - 1 Goyf - 2 Mongoose - 1 Bolt+ 2 ReB + 3 Fluster + 1
Loam + 1 Grudge
Rgarding the Cage it comes down to a meta choice: If you think you might run into some tempo mirrors, Nihil Spellbomb is the better grave hate. If you feel that Eleves is a hard matchup and will be played frequently in your meta Cage is a better option. The latter is better versus Dredge, too. I jut do not feel that Surgical Extraction is another option as it only helps randomly against combo. But in that matchup we do not need that much help. We need strong grave hate versus the hard matchups.
Thanks!
This certainly was a factor on Sunday, as I had to mulligan at least two hands because there was a Taiga or a Badlands in the opener. Obviously the former will happen from time to time, but if the latter had been a Volcanic Island then I likely would have kept the 7. Maybe I'll toss in an 8th fetch, as you mentioned, and see if I like that; I can always fall back on the accepted wisdom if it doesn't work for me.
And as always, I appreciate the feedback and open discussion. This isn't the type of deck you can throw together and turn sideways until you wind up in the winner's circle, but it certainly gives you all the tools you need to get yourself there, and this thread with all its contributors helps me get better at doing that.
I swapped my 3rd main deck Goyf for a TNN, not sure I'll stick with this change because I really do like the 3rd goyf. I may swap the 4th mongoose instead. That would give me another body for the rancor plan post board.
TNN cannot race or defend against a Rancored Goyf.
I'm on the 2 Golgari Charm plan vs TNN and anticipation of the rise of Stoneblade and a greater presence of supreme verdict to fight TNN decks.
Coincidently, I've been feeling that the deck needs an 8th fetch to help set up threshold more easily, but I don't want to go to 19 lands... yet
If it were not for REBS and the fear to lose the tempo mirros because of Stifles I would play most certainly with 8 fetches. But it is close call. I think it is very acceptable to cut a Volcanic for a fetch.Thanks!
This certainly was a factor on Sunday, as I had to mulligan at least two hands because there was a Taiga or a Badlands in the opener. Obviously the former will happen from time to time, but if the latter had been a Volcanic Island then I likely would have kept the 7. Maybe I'll toss in an 8th fetch, as you mentioned, and see if I like that; I can always fall back on the accepted wisdom if it doesn't work for me.
And as always, I appreciate the feedback and open discussion. This isn't the type of deck you can throw together and turn sideways until you wind up in the winner's circle, but it certainly gives you all the tools you need to get yourself there, and this thread with all its contributors helps me get better at doing that.
And you are right about your assumption that playing bUrg needs a lot of skill. bUrg is perhaps the most complicated non-combo deck. But with tight play we can win versus nearly every deck. But we do not have auto-win matchups like Goblins have regarding to Miracles. Every win is hard work and mistakes/sloppy play is forbidden. So after a 9-rounf tournament one always needs a break :D
Then perhaps you can try cutting one Volcanic for the 4th Tarn. With your 3 Goyf plan it is ok to cut one for a Nemesis. I would never cut a onedrop for a 3-drop (Mongoose for TNN).
i agree that swapping a goose for a nemesis doesn't seem optimal. but since we have 10 other 1 drops it might a worthwhile to give it a go since its a hard to remove threat that isnt grave yard dependent.
I'm still theory crafting on that one.
http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2...ilding-theory/
Here is a recent and good article that explains why RUG Delver is not the best deck in legacy anymore. Tomorrow the blog will continue with discussing bUrg. Let us see what will be said concerning our deck ;-).
Although the article is great I must say that the boarding plans provided there are somehow flawed (boarding out Stifles versus Esper Blade and Miracles? What?). So do not take the boarding plans for granted. Stick with the plans in the primer ;-).
Regarding the discussion of cutting one Snare for extra removal: The article let me remember the awesome tech Magma Spray. It is a great great creature removal card at instant speed that can deal with Ichorids and Veteran Explorer as a bonus. Again a good secret tech.
Personally, I will still play 3 Snares as we already have a good amount of removal spells (6). RUG Delver only plays with 5. As Snare "removes" many many creatures it is already a removal spell in disguise :D
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's post!
I am convinced with Forked Bolt. I don't think I'll ever swap it with Snare ever again. The possible 2-for-1's is worth playing sorcery speed removal, and I find myself often using instant speed removal during my main phases anyway (Against DRS, MoM, etc...).
Regarding Badlands, the only reason I'll probably add it to the deck is to make DRS more consistent at shooting people. I think Tropical Island + Badlands is strictly better with DRS in play than U. Sea + Taiga. The "tempo loss" at not being able to activate DRS because you used the Sea to cast Snare is just sad.
I think YP fits the Mongoose role quite fine. Both cards need global removal to be rid of. I do understand the merits of Goose, as I've rode him to more victories than I did with Delver really. I'd have to test more though, my current list just doesn't perform as well as I'd have imagined.
That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of.
Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.
I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.
Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?
Sasan, you are rediculous. I am finding posts in comments around the internet of you defending bUrg. You rock.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I think that running 19 lands - one more than RUG - with a deck that has Shamans is wrong. We only have 29 Spells as we play 13 creatures and with a 19th land the spell count is 28 and the Delver blind flip rate is weakened. I know that some people say that you only need 25 spells to flip Delver but I want a real high chance of flipping him and do not want to waste a cantrip for that.
So You should play 18 lands and it can only be Taiga or Badlands. Both choices are understandable. I want to be able to cast creatures without blue lands, therefore Taiga rules.
Florian Koch states the following and I cannot agree more on that:
"The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as it’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."
If you want more black sources cut a Volcanic for another Underground Sea. I already stated that 3 red sources might be too much in bUrg although we must see if REBs become utterly important in the TNN meta. An 8th fetch might work, too. And a secret tech of some RUG Delver players is to have a 19th land for tempo mirrors in the SB. For mana demanding matchups that could work, too. Although I would love to see a basic island in the sideboard for more reliance. But as the mana base is rock solid in bUrg it is not that much needed.
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