[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[jbone2016]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree

Have we considered Ruric Thar in scapewish or this more of a non-bo?

[Arianrhod]

I tried him once, he was very underwhelming. Nugging yourself for 12 to Wish -> spell is pretty awful, too.

[Esper3k]

I board out Veteran immediately vs Miracles, and usually they come out vs Esperblade, as well. General principles for boarding out Veterans:

1-) opponent has at least 3 or 4 basics. 2 is not enough to care.
2-) opponent is doing something with those basics that we can't readily solve.

2 is the more important one. Examples include High Tide (combo off, island count for high-tide-the-card), Esperblade (planeswalkers, batterskull + stoneforge bullshit, snapcasting force of wills), Miracles (planeswalkers, RIP + Helm in the same turn combo, huge Entreats).

When siding out Veterans, side out 3. Sometimes you still want one to Zenith for.

Other basic-heavy decks, like Merfolk and Death and taxes, we tend not to care -- they don't pass the 2) test. What they're doing, we can easily fix via Deed or Burning Wish. Just keep in mind the consideration of "what are they going to do with these lands" vs "what am I going to do with these lands." In game 1 situations vs these decks its often still correct to fire off an Explorer trigger if you have something meaningful to do.

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I haven't had problems getting a sufficient land count with Explorers out of the deck. Most of the decks that you're boarding Explorer out against are slower control decks where you'll get to 7 lands naturally half the time, and even without, you can still use Carpet mana to Zenith up Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves and ramp that way.

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I actually used to run the 3rd maindeck Scapeshift (with the 4th in the board for wish, obviously). I tried it for a few months, and decided that 2 maindeck + 1 wishable is the best number. You don't generally need or want to see multiples, and at 3 I was getting clogged a bit. There were a few games where I just powered through countermagic with the 3rd copy (run the first into FoW, then resolve the 2nd), which was nice, but it didn't feel necessary.

Sneak and Show can't actually beat Slaughter Games, and they struggle with Therapy. Oftentimes they can just Force of Will a Thoughtseize or a Hymn or something, and then casually go off. Therapy is extremely disadvantageous to Force, because it'll be coming back anyway. Sometimes they nut out, and sometimes they're running a list that still has the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity, which is extremely bad for us, but generally speaking I've won a lot more against Sneak than I've lost. It's not a FUN matchup, by any stretch -- you're sweating bullets the whole time, but it's generally winnable. REB also goes a long way in the matchup, since it stops their "quick threat" of Show and Tell, and sometimes you can "gotcha" them by REBing a Brainstorm in response to Therapy.

Also, this is a matchup where you don't board out Explorers despite them having basics and doing powerful things with them. You also board in the Carpets. This leaves you with a shitton of ramp that gets you to 4 mana on turn 2-turn 3, meaning that we can consistently unload a Slaughter before they're ready to do anything -- usually with some hand disruption and/or REB protection on the way. Keep in mind that Sneak and Show is a very, VERY inconsistent deck, and oftentimes they're struggling to find one of the 3 parts of their combo (mana, enabler, monster). Sometimes all the gears fire and we die, but if they stumble even slightly, we're there to punish them, and punish them hard.

Also also, you board in the 3rd Slaughter Games in this matchup. You want it in your opening hand, and Burning Wish priority in the matchup is Reverent Silence (if Leyline) followed by Innocent Blood (if Show Emrakul) followed by Scapeshift. Your aggro plan ceases to exist (Thrags board out) -- this becomes a straight combo mirror. You have two combos to their one, though: you can Shift kill them, or you can kill them by hitting multiple Slaughter Games via drawing/topping/E.Wit, and exiling all of their monsters.

Hope that helps -- if you have any other questions, just fire away.

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

[Star|Scream]

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

Yeah, there's collective voyage. But slots are limited.

[Ralf]

Yeah, there's collective voyage. But slots are limited.

Or kodama's reach / Seek the Horizon...

[Esper3k]

Collective Voyage looks pretty cool! Sure your opponents might be able to get some lands out of it too, but you should be able to abuse it more than them (or just not use it in matchups where opponents have a bunch of basics). What I like about it is that you don't pay the extra mana until it's resolving, which makes it so that you can potentially play around taxing counters like Daze and still at least get some lands out of it.

[Arianrhod]

Collective Voyage looks pretty cool! Sure your opponents might be able to get some lands out of it too, but you should be able to abuse it more than them (or just not use it in matchups where opponents have a bunch of basics). What I like about it is that you don't pay the extra mana until it's resolving, which makes it so that you can potentially play around taxing counters like Daze and still at least get some lands out of it.

Voyage is by far the superior option in Wishable ramp. I still run into situations every now and then where I find myself wanting it, but overall I've come to believe that Voyage is mostly a crutch. There are very few situations where you're at 4-5 lands, where you don't need to use the Wish to answer something (see: Liliana of the Veil), and where you wouldn't be better served to just sandbag the Wish.

[Richard Cheese]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree

Seeing all these monstrosity/devotion decks in Standard makes me wonder if Theros doesn't have a few hidden gems for Nic Fit
What about
Mistcutter Hydra
Polukranos, World Eater
Nylea, God of the Hunt


This is one of the only decks in Legacy that can generate the mana to make Mistcutter and Polukranos serious threats. Mistcutter has obvious advantages against Blue, but stinks to Zenith for. Polukranos is bigger than most of the format out of the gate, and can potentially act as another Deed, but lacks protection or evasion. Nylea is perhaps the most interesting because you can GSZ for her, and as long as your devotion stays below 5, she can't be plowed or sacced to Liliana (I believe, could be wrong). Basically she just sits there sending everyone else over the top, being essentially removal-proof unless the format suddenly starts packing lots of Erases. I don't know that any builds really have the necessary permanents to actually switch her to creature mode, but with Zenith you could potentially have a singleton Primalcrux or Cloudthresher for surprise attacks, but that honestly doesn't even seem necessary.

[Ralf]

Arbor colossus coule also compete...

[pfiremc13]

Seeing all these monstrosity/devotion decks in Standard makes me wonder if Theros doesn't have a few hidden gems for Nic Fit
What about
Mistcutter Hydra
Polukranos, World Eater
Nylea, God of the Hunt


This is one of the only decks in Legacy that can generate the mana to make Mistcutter and Polukranos serious threats. Mistcutter has obvious advantages against Blue, but stinks to Zenith for. Polukranos is bigger than most of the format out of the gate, and can potentially act as another Deed, but lacks protection or evasion. Nylea is perhaps the most interesting because you can GSZ for her, and as long as your devotion stays below 5, she can't be plowed or sacced to Liliana (I believe, could be wrong). Basically she just sits there sending everyone else over the top, being essentially removal-proof unless the format suddenly starts packing lots of Erases. I don't know that any builds really have the necessary permanents to actually switch her to creature mode, but with Zenith you could potentially have a singleton Primalcrux or Cloudthresher for surprise attacks, but that honestly doesn't even seem necessary.

I don't like any of these and here's why:

Mistcutter is nice vs. blue but can still be plowshared and has no evasion outside of pro-blue so it's quite underwhelming.

Polukranos is ok but nothing special since its monstrosity is overcosted and it has no evasion, like you mentioned.

Nylea is not very good unless you can turn her on. You are correct that she doesn't count as a creature but her abilities are underwhelming really.

Arbor colossus is a little better since it can get quite big but other than being able to kill fliers it's not that special.

[Richard Cheese]

Actually I think Nylea may be better "turned off". She gives everyone trample and can pump, this let's you go over the top with Thragtusk, Wolf Tokens...she even turns late-game Explorers into Argothian Swine or better. Maybe she isn't right for this deck, but I still find the idea of an indestructible enchantment that you can fetch with GSZ pretty intriguing.

[pfiremc13]

Actually I think Nylea may be better "turned off". She gives everyone trample and can pump, this let's you go over the top with Thragtusk, Wolf Tokens...she even turns late-game Explorers into Argothian Swine or better. Maybe she isn't right for this deck, but I still find the idea of an indestructible enchantment that you can fetch with GSZ pretty intriguing.

I...guess?

Her ability seems pretty overcosted to me as a 4 mana enchantment but it is a possibility.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

You can move a Zenith to the board (probably suboptimal) or play a sweeper like Damnation. I played Harmonize in the board for this purpose when I played the Lands.dec version of Scapeshift. I suppose there's always Kodama's Reach or Explosive Vegetation, but those seem kind of bad.

[Luklinda]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon

Kodama of the North Tree


All of them have some sort of evasion (trample, flying, other) to get around / punch through True-Name Nemesis. They each also have individual strengths:

If you're looking into the 6 cmc slots, why not run huge beef Terra Stomper or your own green "everything else I have is TNN-ish" ala Vigor.

[Tao]

If anyone play Terra Stomper as a GSZ target over Primeval Titan I will call the police and have him arrested.

But seriously, what is wrong with Titan in a Valakut/GSZ list? I don't even know what is going on.

[MrIggins]

If anyone play Terra Stomper as a GSZ target over Primeval Titan I will call the police and have him arrested.

But seriously, what is wrong with Titan in a Valakut/GSZ list? I don't even know what is going on.

Basically, its ability is rarely relevant because it tends to kill them faster because it's a 6/6 trampler than with Valakut, and taking lines that set up the slow-Valakut with Titan are sometimes at odds with setting up Scapeshift (getting more mountains in preparation to make Titan triggers more effective vs leaving them in the deck to ensure the Scapeshift is lethal, exposing yourself more to Wasteland, etc). So other options for the slot are being considered. If I'm missing something, feel free to fill in the gaps.

I'm still on the fence. I see arguments that if Titan is good as just a huge beater, then there are better considerations for the slot. That said don't dislike Titan in the list either. I think at this point, I'm just going to be playing the Primeval Titan in the GP, but I am certainly open to the possibility that he could be replaced.

[Arianrhod]

Basically, its ability is rarely relevant because it tends to kill them faster because it's a 6/6 trampler than with Valakut, and taking lines that set up the slow-Valakut with Titan are sometimes at odds with setting up Scapeshift (getting more mountains in preparation to make Titan triggers more effective vs leaving them in the deck to ensure the Scapeshift is lethal, exposing yourself more to Wasteland, etc). So other options for the slot are being considered. If I'm missing something, feel free to fill in the gaps.

I'm still on the fence. I see arguments that if Titan is good as just a huge beater, then there are better considerations for the slot. That said don't dislike Titan in the list either. I think at this point, I'm just going to be playing the Primeval Titan in the GP, but I am certainly open to the possibility that he could be replaced.

/barn

I'm probably also sticking with the Titan for the GP -- this is a post-GP exploration more than anything.

[Ralf]

I haven't been playing the deck as long as Kevin has obviously, but I think we're likely to lose game 1 (maindeck Slaughter Games helps this a lot though). Game 2 and 3 we get to load up on disruption and the goal becomes stalling to Slaughter Games, which often cripples them enough to either let us steal the game with Huntmasters or angry mountains, or resolve the second Slaughter Games, which WILL end the game. I'm currently something like 3-2 lifetime against the deck in competitive events, which is partly luck, but not entirely I'm sure. They are consistently T3-T4, but we can pretty easily T3 a Slaughter Games and seriously mess that up.

I'm not sure we have a decent MU against S&T even after sideboarding. 3 REB are a minimum and I am thinking going to 4...

From my latest BOM experience, TNN is rather a non issue. Thragtusk, Huntmaster, Deed will be a long way before you are killed by TNN. I've met 3 decks packing TNN, 2 died to angry mountains, the last one trounced me hard (not because of TNN even if it played the finisher role)...

I advise you to test your list and therefore adapt your SB against:
- The revisited BUG tempo (team america aggro) is a real pain right now. Delver, DRS, Tarmo and TNN backed up with discard, counterspell, wasteland is a huge pain. It has the tools to kill you just before you stabilize. if TNN is nice in Merfolk, it truly shines here.
- Omnishow which might not be popular in the US is also very hard to deal with.
- The not so new "reanimator" thing is making a resurgence. Packing instant reanimation spell like Tin Fins but with a more classic shell is a damn beater too.

Well I guess, nothing new, we are still weak to combo, but who knows, these few insights may help you before the GP.

[Qweerios]

Speaking of the GP, I have booked my 14 hour train ride to DC and was wondering how I could recognize fellow Nic Fitters at the event.

I am still unsure if I want to play Nic Fit at the GP but I did kinda swore to myself that my first event outside the country should be done representing Nic Fit just because I am still that Nic Fit guy to a lot of people up in here.... even after I started topping events with other decks (go figure).

[Esper3k]

You can move a Zenith to the board (probably suboptimal) or play a sweeper like Damnation. I played Harmonize in the board for this purpose when I played the Lands.dec version of Scapeshift. I suppose there's always Kodama's Reach or Explosive Vegetation, but those seem kind of bad.

Collective Voyage seems like an amazing flexible ramp spell if we want it in that slot. From the Ashes was actually pretty brutal when you're on that 4 lands, have nothing to do with Burning Wish, spot.

/barn

I'm probably also sticking with the Titan for the GP -- this is a post-GP exploration more than anything.

Browsing through Gatherer, here were some other interesting fatties:

Deus of Calamity - Probably too cute but does put pressure on the opponent to block it every turn.
Elderscale Wurm - This guy seemed really interesting to me. Costs 7, which sucks, but against the non-white decks he is great at keeping you alive.
Gargantuan Gorilla - Ok, I just put this in here to see if anyone was reading and also equally amused by King Kong leaping out and falcon punching an Insectile Abberation in the face.
Moldgraf Monstrosity - Again 7 is probably too much but he's huge and if he gets killed, you're probably going to have dudes to bring back.
Nylea, God of the Hunt - I actually like Richard Cheese's suggestion for her. She's not going to be your big mana bomb, but she is more like your mid range threat (similar to Scavenging Ooze) that is incredibly difficult to remove.
Panglacial Wurm - Probably too cute, but turning your late game fetches and Explorers into a Panglacial Wurm seems loltastic.
Rampaging Baloths - Nice body, has Trample. In our deck especially, it could very easily get out of control in a turn or two.
Simon Sky Swallower - Too bad we're not playing blue since it looks to have everything we're looking for. Big body, evasion, shroud.
Thornling - Interesting but no Shroud. Still, if we have lots of mana, it can leap out and hasty indestructible bitch slap someone.
Wolfir Silverheart - Another midrange guy. Great if you have other guys on the board but not so hot solo.