[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[Dzra]

Him: land go
Me: land go
Him: land brainstorm
Me: Metalworker go
Him: true name go
Me: kuldotha forgemaster go
Him: play and equip jitte swing. I go to 17 go
Me: I play trinisphere and pass
Him: swing with jitted true name remove 2 counters. I go to 12. He reequips to the other untapped true name and passes. I blightsteel end step.
Me: swing with blue steel he takes 8 poison. 3 counters on jitte.
Him: swing for 12 next turn

While I don't particularly like True-Name Nemesis, I'm not sure that I really have a problem with this scenario. Is he just supposed to die to your Blightsteel because that is such a fair card? Nemesis's high power level was a big factor in him winning this game, but considering that he beat an effective 22 power trampler with two x/1s to kill you for exactsies the turn before you could lethal him speaks to me of pretty tight play on his part.

[(nameless one)]

Should have grabbed Steel Hellkite and nuked his board.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't appreciate the attitude but the substance is on the mark. I admit as most fair minded people would that there is insufficient evidence at this point to propose a banning. However, I have to say that waiting to make a decision on whether a card is busted after 2-3months is kind of like being captain hindsight. Sure skullclamp looks busted after you see it take half of the top8's for 3 months straight but making the call before hand is more difficult and fun. History suggests that almost all cards proposed for banning don't get banned because the format changes to handle them. It just depends on whether those changes lead to format warping. In this way both sides are really saying the same thing just in different degrees.

I think the one thing we can all agree on though is that this card is definitely one of the best creatures in the format. I was curious what everyone thought about true name nemesis vs. geist and clique for spots. I was talking to someone about it being different tools for different jobs but I was curious if anyone thinks true name nemesis will replace those guys wholesale.

I think it will have a similar impact as Delver, despite playing a slightly different role. TNN might be slightly lower just because of a more restrictive mana cost (notice it showing up as a 2 or 3-of most of the time). Does that kind of impact make it bannable? Probably not, honestly.

[blacklotus3636]

Should have grabbed Steel Hellkite and nuked his board.

You got me on that one. I tried getting a hellkite before the tournament but I couldn't buy him locally or trade for him in the last week because he's somewhat obscure and underplayed. That would have been the best play though. I mainly talked about that because its really a board state that normally wins the game.

Do you think this guy will replace clique or will decks that run clique run both?

[AngryTroll]

Do you think this guy will replace clique or will decks that run clique run both?

I haven't decided what I'm going to do in Team America yet. I run Tombstalkers in the maindeck and True-Name Nemesis competes for those two slots directly, but I'm not sure which card is going to end up getting that slot. TNN will not replace the Cliques in the sideboard for use against combo.

[Greenpoe]

If you target yourself, TNN combos with Pestilence.

[kirdie]

Do you have an estimate when the best time is to pick them up cheap?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Do you have an estimate when the best time is to pick them up cheap?

Right now most places are sold out of the Commander decks except for the shit one. As Christmas approaches they will start to restock. Also around Thanksgiving through Christmas tournaments die down and people start to spend money on presents for other people and travel expenses, so there is lower demand for singles and people who need extra money will dip into there stock and start moving singles so there is more demand. Thanksgiving through Christmas is the best time to buy any Magic singles IMO.

[dahcmai]

Speaking from the the salesman's point of view, Christmas is an amazing time to pick up cards. Selling is horrid at the time with the market flooded with people who need money to buy gifts with. I'd buy them just before and after Christmas when people have no cash or realize they spend too much and need to recoup. May and July are the sellers favorite months when everything is expensive. Just don't wait that long.

[joven]

I would buy that as an argument for True-Name Nemesis's ability only worked in multiplayer. The problem is that functionally speaking, in a 2-player game, True-Name Nemesis has protection from everything (actually, it's even better than that, but let's go with "protection from everything" for simplicity). Protection from everything is an ability that is certainly not Blue. Though it isn't White either, "protection from everything" is really something that requires the combined might of all 5 colors, as shown in Progenitus.

That's the issue. Functionally speaking, this isn't protection from something other than a color. In a 2-player game, it's functionally protection from everything... but even better!

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!

I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?

I think, they're not good enough most of the time, except Toxic Deluge.



---
As a side note:
I think it is weird that Trample damage goes through Protection. Just read it in the rules. On the other hand it makes stupid uninteractive Protection a tiny bit weaker.

[Star|Scream]

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!




I think, they're not good enough most of the time, except Toxic Deluge.

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

[PirateKing]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

Or, you know, a lord.

[from Cairo]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

Or, you know, a lord.

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

[PirateKing]

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

Then accept my apology.

[Star|Scream]

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

Yes. Sorry, what I meant to say was that -1/-1 cards are effective against TNN when he is in decks that are not named merfolk. I apologize for my shitty sentence structure.

[Lord Seth]

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!

Progenitus is fine, I think. In fact, I really like the card. He's got a very crippling cost that makes him fair. And even though almost no one who plays him actually pays his mana cost, you still have to do finagling to get him into play.

I actually think it's really cool to have a card that flat-out says "protection from everything." The problem is that something that mighty should be reserved for something like the 10-mana five-color Progenitus, not slapped onto a 3-mana one-color creature.

[joven]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

Well, if you have a TNN in play you really really want to put a jitte or a sword or something on him or at least a few Lords into play.
That he lays around with toughness 1 might happen, but probably not that often. So better not rely on simply -1/-1 against him. ;)

[Zombie]

Progenitus is fine, I think. In fact, I really like the card. He's got a very crippling cost that makes him fair. And even though almost no one who plays him actually pays his mana cost, you still have to do finagling to get him into play.

I actually think it's really cool to have a card that flat-out says "protection from everything." The problem is that something that mighty should be reserved for something like the 10-mana five-color Progenitus, not slapped onto a 3-mana one-color creature.

Not to mention that TNN's version is actually better, though not strictly.

[Star|Scream]

Well, if you have a TNN in play you really really want to put a jitte or a sword or something on him or at least a few Lords into play.
That he lays around with toughness 1 might happen, but probably not that often. So better not rely on simply -1/-1 against him. ;)

If they have resolved a TNN AND equipment/stoneforge, and after 2-3 turns you are still unable to deal with the equipment, haven't you already lost?

I was playing against D&T on Cockatrice and the other guy was like "How long do you think before they ban TNN?" I was like, are you really complaining about a 3 drop when you play D&T where you can port/waste/mangara my lands to smithereens and have fliers to go over him? I think people are really overhyping this card and should just try to play it to see what it really does. My TNN's die all the time--to Lili, to thoughtseize, to hymn, to daze, to reb, to zealous persecution!

[rufus]

...
I was playing against D&T on Cockatrice and the other guy was like "How long do you think before they ban TNN?"
...

It's a bit like delver in that regard. Not overpowering enough to get banned, but a terribly designed card that's strong enough to see competitive play.