I'll have to try the COTV again after the GP or during a grinder. I don't want to change my deck too much before the GP as I have 4-0'ed the last two weekly legacy events I have played in. I am pretty comfortable with my side board plans currently but you have much more experience with the deck then I do.Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod
One thing I learned about the Gamble version is that you absolutely want Dark Confidants in the board. I understand the idea that the Dark Depths plan is already somewhat graveyard independent and the want to play hatebears instead. But the fair matchups just become so much worse. People tend to have removal for Marit Lage (Plow, Karakas, Needle, Wasteland) while also attacking your graveyard.
I still believe G/R/x will be the way to go as long as we have to play red cards. I love Tolaria West and Academy Ruins in this deck, but playing Tolaria West and Grove of the Burnwillows is already asking to get color screwed. And you want to play at least black on top of that.
Can I ask what your sideboard looks like? I would like to limit myself to R/G/B (and no W), you seem to be on these colors.
I am curious how you would board against RIP and STP, aside from dark confidant.
Right now I'm running (with Kurt Spiess's MD -Savannah, +Bayou, -Bog, +Karakas)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Dark Depths
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Bojuka Bog
The anti combo cards are a bit up in the air. I realise that I would probably need to devote more slots to stand a chance here, but on the other hand I cannot convince myself that it is worth it. The matchups will remain bad and you lose valuable slots against other decks. Maybe it makes sense to choose more narrow, more impactful cards against a popular combo strategy (just e.g. (I realise the nombo with Dark Depths) Ensnaring Bridge against SnS) and go empty against other ones?
A generic boarding plan against non combo decks with permanent based hate looks something like +4 Dark Confidant, +2 Dark Depths, +3 Krosan Grip, +Oblivion Stone, -2 Manabond, -4 Gamble, -Karakas, -Crop Rotation/Punishing Fires/Maze of Ith. Depending on deck you might also want the Chalice.
Ok, I was wrong about chalice. Just won my GP DC grinder with lands.
I will do my best with a personal GUb version today.
looking forward, also would like to see Ramparts list?
Also trying a peculiar Gbuw list tomorrow in preparation for a big tournament at the beginning of December, I'll post the list if the results are not too embarrassing :)
I thought it might have been you when I saw that decklist - no cycling lands in the 75:)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...as13/welcome#1
Played in a small tournament today (17 people) with a "non usual" build for a split in the final. The build I played is:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
3 Dark Confidant
1 Dark Depths
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Swan Song
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
We played 5 turns of swiss and Top8 and we had pretty much all the usual Legacy meta (I will post the link on TCDecks when and if it will be available).
Here you go with a quick run down of the matches:
- 1st Match: Daniele with EsperBlade (featuring TNN)
G1: we both started the game pretty fast with him on Stoneforge Mistyc + Batterskull and me attacking his mana base with a Wasteland and a single Rishadan Port. I managed to hold him a bit with a Maze of Ith but the deck decided to crap on me not dredging any other Port for his 4 basic lands and not showing a tutor nor a piece of the combo...I died with tons of mana killed by a Jace that survived a couple of countered EE. Out go 2 manabond, 3 entomb and a Loam; In 3 Dark Confidant, 2 Thalia and a DD.
G2: The deck decided that I didn't have to win the match and after a mulligan to 6 (without a life from the loam) proceeded to show me 3 consecutive Mox Diamond from the top of the deck....I died horribly. Not a good start of the tournament...
0 - 0 - 1
- 2nd Match: Massimiliano with Death&Taxes (featuring Mangara)
G1: I couldn't believe it, in testing the build seemed extremely consistent and it was crapping on me again. I lost quickly to a ton of equipments with only 2 lands on the board. At this point I was almost tempted to call the day and dismount the deck...I decide to hang on and side out the same set of the previous game siding in 3 Confidant, 2 Krosan Grip (for RiP) and a DD
G2: a 20/20 indestructible beater on turn 2 with my opponent tapped out...good times
G3: I waste a Port, a Cavern and a Karakas and proceed to summon Marit Lage that gets StPed twice with me winning the game at 59 life points
1 - 0 - 1
- 3rd match RUG (don't remember the name of my opponent, sorry :( )
G1: another crappy hand and I get punished by a delver coupled with a wasteland, a stifle, double pierce and double bolt...nobody could beat that :) Same siding as the first match.
G2: quick Marit Lage (3rd or 4th turn) and we go to the third game
G3: I don't remember very well but I think I denied his mana and played Marit lage quickly for the win again. The oppo wanted to stifle the combo but the judge explained that he could only stifle the Stage activation giving him another turn to find a solution.
Feeling better now, the deck his working as expected even if it was supposed to win G1s not G2s and G3s....
2 - 0 - 1
- 4th match Antonio with GRB Nic Fit (without Scapeshift)
G1: when I saw the red mana I feared scapeshift and I tried to control his red mana sources. In the meanwhile he is beating with 2 explorers. When the explorers get the company of a witness, I drop Glacial Chasm that gets copied by Stage the turn after. The board is stalled in this way for a couple of turns and he gets more presence with an huntmaster. I finally draw a Crop Rotation and combo out. Same siding as the match with D&T
G2: he keeps a hand a bit shaky with mana and gets punished by my denial. After a bit I combo again and win.
3 - 0 - 1
- 5th match against Tin Fins. I was paired up and we decided to draw to get into top8
3 - 1 - 1
- Quarterfinals against the Tin Fins I IDed during the swiss.
G1: a very difficult match-up in G1 but I can give him a surprise with crop rotation into Bojuka Bog. I obviously don't see crop (or anything else :) ) in the first 7 and mulligan into a hand with crop, karakas and other stuff but lacking green mana. I keep hoping to draw G (I'm on the play and hoped that the karakas would be enough). Unfortunately he has the nuts and combo out during the first turn with me not being able to do anything. I side in everything except for the 2 krosan grips and side out 2 loams, 2 manabond, 3 entomb, 3 EE, Tabernacle and 2 maze of ith.
G2: I keep a hand with turn one canonist and some denial that slows him down enough to be able to play a second canonist and kill him
G3: I mull to a very bad 5 with swan song and dark confidant but only a bayou...I feel very lost but he doesn't have an exceptional hand and I manage to top deck the denial I need followed by canonist, spere of resistance and a second swan song. I beat him down and counter one of his entomb when he is at 4 then proceed to play EE to get rid of the token and make the remaining 4 damages
I'm very happy that my sideboard worked out, I feel a lot more confident going forward.
- Semifinals against the Esper Blade deck that had beaten me during the swiss
G1: he keeps a hand a bit weak on lands and gets punished out of it. I combo off after a while because the deck refuses to provide the needed support and risked a return from the opponent. In addition to the same siding strategy of the swiss match I sided in the 2 krosan grips and sided out another loam.
G2: I control his Batterskull with double maze of ith until I'm able to combo out and he doesn't have the StP that would save his life.
We split the finals (opponent was on Jund), we were pith tired and decided not to risk :)
The deck is bonkers, it provides a very strong sideboard strategy against combo and it seems to play well against the meta. There were two Elfs decks in the room but I haven't met them, they would have probably been a difficult matchup.
Well i did my best effort but i didnt do it so well.
It was:
R1 Rock (BG): 1-1
R2 UWr miracle: 0-2
R3 UWb stoneblade: 1-1
R4 Rock (BGW): 1-0
R5 Drop: Date with my wife!
Here is my decklist an my rationale:
/ Lands
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [SOM] Forest (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [R] Bayou
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [B] Bayou
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
// Spells
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
1 [EX] Manabond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [MR] Mindslaver
1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
I was expecting midrange deck and combo stuff so i decided go for disruption: `Raven's Crime anoying for combo and good against control. Go up to 2 EE main deck because i expected shaman and reduced my instant / sorcery as much as i could and added cursed scroll which was awesome all day killing shaman, clique and PW.
As you see i faced 2 shaman decks and played very decent against them winning the G1 both times.
I wanted also a card against combo that dont cut my own cards. CotV, althogh very good, eats my moxes (the 2nd one), my eplorations and loam (at 0, 1, 2 respectively) so i took Sphere of resistance.
The deck was solid but i made a few mistakes specially against miracle when i didnt realize entreat the angel at instant speed (i hurt my self with fetchs and canopy).
Off course punishing lands could savemy my as* in the rocks MU but i'm gladanyway with my playstyle.
The main concern i had was when to side in confidant. I think i had chance to do it against control MU but i didnt choosing discard instead. Was it right?
GC.
i think that vs control, the confidants are particularly awesome.
you have plenty of stuff to take out, like:
4 maze of ith
1 tabernacle
1 karakas
2 life from the loam (since he has surgical)
1 intuition
lets you add:
4 Dark Confidant
1 abrupt decay
1 krosan grip
3 Ravens Crime
i think the scrolls are cute, and make sense. I played them in the board about three years ago as there was alot of tribal and maverick around at the time.
Well i did my best effort but i didnt do it so well.
It was:
R1 Rock (BG): 1-1
R2 UWr miracle: 0-2
R3 UWb stoneblade: 1-1
R4 Rock (BGW): 1-0
R5 Drop: Date with my wife!
Here is my decklist an my rationale:
/ Lands
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [SOM] Forest (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [R] Bayou
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [B] Bayou
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
// Spells
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
1 [EX] Manabond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [MR] Mindslaver
1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
I was expecting midrange deck and combo stuff so i decided go for disruption: `Raven's Crime anoying for combo and good against control. Go up to 2 EE main deck because i expected shaman and reduced my instant / sorcery as much as i could and added cursed scroll which was awesome all day killing shaman, clique and PW.
As you see i faced 2 shaman decks and played very decent against them winning the G1 both times.
I wanted also a card against combo that dont cut my own cards. CotV, althogh very good, eats my moxes (the 2nd one), my eplorations and loam (at 0, 1, 2 respectively) so i took Sphere of resistance.
The deck was solid but i made a few mistakes specially against miracle when i didnt realize entreat the angel at instant speed (i hurt my self with fetchs and canopy).
Off course punishing lands could savemy my as* in the rocks MU but i'm gladanyway with my playstyle.
The main concern i had was when to side in confidant. I think i had chance to do it against control MU but i didnt choosing discard instead. Was it right?
GC.
Yeah i think you are right. But probably i'd keep some mazes since they stop germ token and cliques easily. Bojuka bog could be a choice....i know it annnuls snapcaster but i'm very confortable with maze. Mindslaver also due to it high cmc.
And i really loved scroll! It's so easy to activate.
thx
GC.
Went 5-0-4 at the gp with no byes. All my draws were definitley winnable with tighter play. I just need to learn how to think and prioritize a bit faster while still making optimum plays. I underestimated how difficult the amount of triggers, draw effects, and overall board state slowed down my thinking. More games should shake this off.
I venture to say this is more complicated to pilot than Tendrils and Ichorid. I now have to give even more respect to Lands players that have turned out results in a sizable event.
Thanks onebigsquirrelgod for the advice and constructive criticism on my games. I learned a lot.
I think this list is very interesting. Could you maybe talk a bit more about the reasons behind this build? Do you think EE is better than Punishing Fires in the current meta or is it just a substitute so you can run Confidants (same goes for Gamble vs Entomb)? Do we need 3 Tropical Island for 1 blue card (4 after board)? This is confusing me because I would have thought the reason of only dipping into blue for Ruins (and not for Tolaria West) would be to have better mana.
Yeah, you are right, I didn't comment enough on the build.
EE instead of Punishing Fire: we play PF because of Shaman, sure it helps in other match-ups but shaman is the main reason that forced the inclusion of PF. My reasoning has been as it follows:
- You play PF on the second turn if possible (on average). The same happens with EE, you play it at 1 on the first turn and then clear the board in your second turn. So, basically, EE is about half a turn slower than PF but solves the same issue.
- 4 EE are needed because you want to see it in your opening hand against shaman (the same as PF)
- EE works around the issue that PF had when trying to kill a shaman if it got countered and then removed by shaman...EE can't be removed. In addiction you may loose one against a Ooze but you'll be able to dig for another sooner or later.
- It forces blue in the mana base to make sure that you have U available for Academy Ruins activations. I used 3 Tropical and only 1 Savannah to make sure that, if needed, I could use swan song and activate Ruins in the same turn. In addition your W silver bullets in the sideboard are "fire and forget" while you really want your U sources to stay on the board.
- Playing the GRB "combo" version I felt frustrated by decks that would try to control the board (artefact based decks, Miracles, etc.), if they stick a piece of hate (chalice, needle, RiP...) you may probably have to go to G2 :)
- EE plays very well the G2 synergy with Confidant, you can just use them once and they may clear the piece of board that you need cleared before combing out.
Entomb instead of Gamble:
- I hate the variance of Gamble.
- Entomb enables crazy plays with loam and is totally synergetic with the combo and the engine. In my opinion it gives the deck the little bit of consistency that it was missing.
- G2 Entomb goes out pretty much all the time and get basically replaced by Confidant for the reasons that we all know
Intuition and Tolaria West:
- I started playing Lands a looooong time ago :) Until some months ago I wouldn't leave home without 3 Intuition and 3 Tolaria West...guess what? they are less consistent than 4 Crop Rotations and 3 Entombs in the combo build. Sure, Tolaria can't be countered but it is so slow in comparison with crop and entomb that the "combo" version is a lot better without. The same applies to Intuition, too slow and too easily captured by the U heavy meta we face
- very often you go for their throat even when you would loose in the medium term with the board state you have: you crop/entomb into the missing piece of the combo and gg. Tolaria and intuition require setup and some form of control of the game state that you can't afford anymore with the speed of the current decks.
Swan Song:
- Yesterday it was the first time I took SS to a tournament, they allowed my G3 win against Tin Fins and they are probably the best help that the deck can get against Sneak and Show
Basically, I believe that the combo route is the one to go for and this is the best combo enabling build that I could put together that would maintain the strong controlling aspects of Lands.
Does this clear some of your doubts? I'm looking for help on the build to nit pick my choices, so, please, feel free to shoot at it and I'll be very happy to discuss :)
Also, I forgot: TNN wants EE!! PF is not going to be enough. Before you could control Mongoose with Bojuka Bog, now you have to kill the mini progenitus or you die quickly. Even better if they stick a CC3 sword on it :)
Lands is a deck that demands multiple choices in a single game. So not only is one of the most expensive decks in the format but also one which leaves almost no place for mistakes. So i encourage you to play more and more.
could you share your list?
GC
Thanks for clearing stuff up. Basically I figured as much. Gotta test whether EE>Fires is something I'm truly happy with. I still feel you could open up some slots in the mana base. I would suggest going -Bayou, -Tropical Island, +Fetch gaining one slot and maybe even cutting the Forest for a second. Candidates for inclusion would be a third Thicket, fourth Maze, fourth Stage, Urborg, Ghost Quarter or even an alternate win condition like Tar Pit.
strongly urge you to not cut forest.
if your looking for alternate win, consider play the good old wurm harvest.
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