Miracle Control

[Valtrix]

It's gone for quite a while:[/URL]

2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

[Koby]

2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post. (mtgthesource.com)

[Dzra]

Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post. (mtgthesource.com)

Although this isn't too relevant to the original question, I'm pretty sure that TES is just dead if there is either a 0, 1, 2, or 4 on top for Counterbalance. 1 and 2 are obvious, but 4 means that they can't Diminishing Returns, IGG, or PIF. 0 means that they would have to Dimishing Returns with zero mana floating and unable to cast 0-drops. The ideal line is to force them into Emptying and then just get them. Also, I dislike playing out the EE for 0 because this let's them know that Empty isn't good enough and TES doesn't pack too much discard anyways.

[klaus]

Hi guys...

Hey Rook1e I edited in some thoughts.

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas - unusual choice, but seems legit given a considerable showing of S&T.
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels - many players who've switched to 3 haven't looked back, though your meta seems like 2 could indeed be the correct number
4x Terminus - given TNN is a thing, I'd make sure too have 2-3 Supreme Verdicts in your 75. I currently go with: 2 Terminus 2 Verdict MD // 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus SB

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat - D&T will pack more fliers than usual to race TNN just like the top16 versions at BoM, and Stoneblade has Cliques and Strixs, making Moat a suboptimal MD choice imo. I'd definitely replace it with STP/CB #4
1x Rest in Peace - since you don't seem to predict many graveyard-based decks, I'd suggest bin this and replace it with EE, which will shine against TNN & DnT

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique - 3 Cliques seem legit due to the rise of Combo.

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence - you already have 2 Wear/Tear and 1WW can be tough to achieve against D&T. I reckon you want to bring that in against SnT and Combo as well, but I'm sure cheaper choices that are just as valuable (Flusterstorm, etc.)
1x Engineered Explosives - if you rock one in the MD you can cut your SB EE, and replace it with more dedicated hate
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental - while this guy is cute, I'd definitely go with Terminus #3/4 & Supreme Verdict #2/3 for those slots.
1x Venser, Shaper Savant - I don't really like this guy - if you're looking for S&T hate, Humility seems just better
2x Wear / Tear

peace,
j

[Lemnear]

I'm not convinced that fighting over TNN is smart if you can easily race the guy and his potential Equipment with 2 Angels

[Poron]

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.

we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

[klaus]

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.
we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

Good point. 2 Wear/Tear 1-2 Needle, 1-2 EE (MD) should do the trick though, no?
Then again EE is not considered to be part of the core by many.
They've been working great for me ever since my times as a Landstiller.

[Poron]

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.

Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

[klaus]

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.
Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

imo Thief has been discarded even by StoneBlade due to lack of applications/CMC4.
Ethersworn Canonist does similar things and more at half the cost, plus in-colour.

@ Deluge:
Someone wise said that 1 mana less (-> Supreme Verdict) does not justify the life loss in a hardcore control deck that wins on 1-5 life more often than not AND has access to Legacy's best sweepers.
Also, REB handles TNN nicely too.

[bryanzoll]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

This is my current list and what i thought could be a decent sb. But wanted to get some inputs from you guys :D

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Terminus

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat
1x Rest in Peace

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
2x Wear / Tear

I'm looking forward to hearing from you all

/Rook

I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

[klaus]

I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

Not trying act like a mod, but suggesting unusual choices such as MD Humility and SB MM should be backed by answers to "why?".

[YamiJoey]

MM isn't that weird.

I'd only main Humility if I was facing loads of S/T or other stuff Humility is good against, and I was playing a hard RiP Helm variant. As in only playing a single Entreat and double Tutor with Moat or some other Enchantress-like build.

[Dzra]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

I'd probably cut the MD RIP and Elspeth for the 4th CB and 4th Swords. You can afford to move the Moat to the SB if you wanted the 3rd Entreat MD, but it's really not that bad MD. In the SB Aura of Silence, Mountain, and at least the second Sulfur Elemental are all pretty weak in my opinion. You should try to fit in a Supreme Verdict and I still like Pyroclasm for Death and Taxes and Elves. An Enlightened Tutor in the SB can be nice to increase the density of your RIPs, Moat, and Ethersworn.

[Cipher]

What are people's thoughts on running Explosives over Disenchant or Wear/Tear? I suppose you can run multiple copies of both, but I was running a 1/1 split and recently made them both Explosives. The Wear/Tear first became a Disenchant when I realized that it was basically Shatter 90% of the time which required I fetch the worst land in the deck. Not too long after, a second Explosives just seemed stronger against Stoneforge decks, anyhow...and Delver, and Death & Taxes. I know Joe is already running a 2/2 split, so I wouldn't expect any more Explosives than that, but perhaps some people aren't so heavy on non-creature permanent hate?

[klaus]

Alright guys, I'm gonna go there. TNN - yep, you heard me right.. The idea of giving this blue idiot a miraculous spin has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while now and was tenaciously discarded - until today.
I'm going to try to keep this short just so that the TNN haters don't have to puke all over their screens and keyboards more than twice.

Feels like a dejavu, doesn't it? Some of you might recall the Tarmo hype back in the day when everyone started implementing Lhurgoyfs into any kind of archetypes - heck even Goblins and Landstill! My initial inspiration to try this rather dumb approach dates back a little further though, namely 15 years to a dude from Urza's Saga.

Any educated blue Control player probably was reminded of Morphling when TNN got spoiled. But before I briefly dip into a comparison, let me assure you that I'm aware that times have changed and there are some actual reasons Morphling is not being played anymore. Anywho, let's list some specs.

Mr. M.	Mr. N.
CMC 5 sort of flying semi-shroud can cause up to 5 dmg / turn blocks dudes up to 4 power and lives to tell the tale	CMC 3 unblockable shroud will cause at least 3 dmg / turn blocks a 20/20 KotR like a champ

Alright cool, so TNN wins this comparison handily, but does that really warrant testing in Miracles.dec, which never gave a damn about Mr. M in the first place? And even if so, what among the ultra tight 75 could ever be cut for TNN's sake?
Well there's 1 spell that's an obvious candidate: EtA. And while I'm aware that those heavenly tokens have become a vital part of the core, both spells fulfill similar roles - so let's compare them real quick:

EtA	Mr. N.
at least CMC 3 including WW requires setup aka Top but can be cast at instant speed terrible earlygame OK midgame superb lategame Spell Piercable flying --------------------- can end the game in one turn	max. CMC 3 (on-colour) ------------------- ------------------- OK earlygame good midgame OK lategame -------------------- unblockable, shroud pitchable to FoW will end the game in a grindier way

I have to admit TNN does not win that comparison really, but does he lose? Maybe - only testing will tell. This is the list that I'm going to give a spin tonight:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
4 STP
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
3 TNN
1 Vendilion Clique
1 EtA
1 EE
[37]

23 awesome mana sources

SB:
3 RiP
3 REB
2 Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Terminus
1 meta slot

Thanks for your patience. I'll let you know about my testing stuff soon.
Now let the bashing begin :)

[Lemnear]

Carsten Kotter came up at the BoM with that idea just to use TNN as a wall till you can drop a bunch of Angels and just win. The list in question however had the full set of EtA and no more Terminus

[twndomn]

The hard part is not jamming TNN in, the hard part is what to take out. I wouldn't touch any removals. Looks like the only spot is to compete against Clique spot. Before we debate TNN vs Clique, the use of that creature slot is vastly different in Rip-Helm and Legend-Angel builds.

If the Rip-Helm build only has 1 or 2 Clique, I can see why people would give TNN a shot. However, both Clique and TNN are vulnerable to Liliana, and lots of people underestimate Flash. I don't see TNN in Legend-Angel builds at this point in time.

[YamiJoey]

I'm not playing it when I could have Flash / Flying instead. I don't think it's better than Clique. EtA can end the game in one turn, and seeing as we are basically sweepers and counterspells.dek, being Instant Speed and not having to lose value when you Terminus the board because it isn't hitting for 16 a turn and so isn't getting you there is quite important.

There's basically never a point where I want TNN in my deck whilst I'm playing Terminus and Supreme Verdict. If I was playing Counter Top + Stoneforge, with Jace Battserksull, and Entreat as win conditions, I'd look into it. I quite like the idea, but seeing as I simply don't plan on getting any TNN's any time soon and I've still not actually got all of my cards I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

[Dzra]

... I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

[Lemnear]

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

Sure is there one if you go to the supermarket or even the local Information-Center, but if you move along the typical Tourist-paths, you'll sure survive with english. At the tournament itself, almost everyone speaks englisch or at least "Magic": everyone knows what "bounce", "attack", etc. means even if they otherwise don't speak a single word of englisch. Judges will assist if there are language problems and even translate at your table if really needed. Never had any issues concerning the Language there