Granted, I play a cheaper version of the deck, but I'm not sure I agree with much of this.Originally Posted by MtgVector
If this week is any indication to me, Pithing Needle has plenty of use. Maybe it's because my meta features just about every deck currently played in Legacy, but I found some way to use it in every single one of my games: almost always to great effect. Not running Needle just because several decks happen to run Abrupt Decay seems pretty dumb to me. They still have to have it in order to take out your Needle, and those decks would almost certainly be running Decay anyway: if it's not hitting Needle, then it's probably going to hit Candelabra of Tawnos or Oblivion Stone if you're running either. If you boarded in Chalice of the Void, Decay takes care of that, too. Especially if you can tutor for it with Trinket Mage, but even if you can't, I feel reasonably certain that Pithing Needle warrants some number of slots in the deck, where that number is greater than zero. I find that Pithing Needle is also a reasonably high priority target when it comes to my opponent counterspelling or destroying things, and if it means I can then resolve a clutch Crop Rotation or Sensei's Divining Top, then I'm not going to bitch.
First, thank you for giving constructive advices. About Breeding Pool, i dislike it too, but found that having an additional colored land is much more useful in combo matchups than a vesuva, expecially if you are on the draw. I don't mind paying 2 lifes to have it untapped and ready to be used to cast a swan song or a flusterstorm if needed. That's why i cut a vesuva to make room for it.
About green zenith, i have to admit it doesn't often shine, but i considered it a "little toolbox" to grab oracle of mul-daya or a titan when you're in short of. Frankly, grabbing a titan with zenith almost always has the same cost of playing your all is dust, and effect should be quite similar. Anyway, i thought about cutting it for an additional show and tell, but i'm recently playing an inbred version between yours and mine, adding 2 e.e. maindeck and moving both the thragtusk to sb, leaving titan as the only zenith target maindeck, and have to say i'm quite happy with it atm. I'll have to test more anyway.
Repeal is there against delver/blade decks, but with e.e. will be cut for sure from sb. I can see your point about the counterspell package, but i sb them in against combo decks only and sometimes you're forced to drop a chalice @1, that will totally cripple your counterspells plan if you're relying mostly on songs. But again, i'll consider to bring both to an equal number (3-3).
I like the idea, it also beats RUG.
I like it, it's a nice a nice way go deep into your deck looking for vital cards when you're missing top, and also protects your vital spells from discard. While i think the full package isn't necessary since we have 4 tops anyway, i can't say i'm not happy of drawing one in almost every game-state.
About the Candelabras issue that came up lately, i played with 2 of them times ago, but now i'm down to 1 and happy with it. It's a really good card, don't get me wrong, but only when you have a decent amount of cloudposts already available in play, and topdecking it while you're being pressurized is awful. It can be tutored with trinket and that's fine for me.
If breeding pool is for combo decks. Used mostly to make sure you hit color, run another island. Infinitely better.
Rather have a island then a pool vrs delver.
Can't play combo all day. Legacy is no place for shock lands (death shadow exception)
not on the wagon for green sun.
But to each their own.
I see why u don't run more song, due to fluster working better with chalice.
I seem to play delver every other round, so I go with a more, anti tempo sb.
:thumbup:
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Well, it's not that breeding pool is just for combo, it's an additional clunky dual land that i'm usually happier to have in my starting hand than a vesuva, and it's the titan's dual land target for excellence. Since i've lately cut a bit of green cards (no more tusk and oracle mainboard) i'm considering to cut it too, but I don't want to swap it for a basic island because there's nothing i hate more than having a titan in my hand and 2 basic islands in play looking at me helplessy.
I'm not a big fan of krosan grip in sb, which are its uses for you? I usually never had problems with batterskulls and i think ulamog is our cure for any pesky permanent
Krosan is for
Any equipment deck
sulfuric vortex
Blood moon
Top
Sneak
Omni
Dream halls
Defense grid
Needle
Vial
It kills a lot and can usually time walk their turn, they spend lots of man to use them and I just kill it
Seems to work for me
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I had a few disappointing weeks playing this deck and had to change it up. My approach was steadily moving towards the "tool box" version of post. On paper, it felt ideal to have multiple trinket mages, with searchable needles, chalice, even meek stone and graffdigger's cage, and of course the land package - but the winning results just weren't coming. I realized that this assumed resilience actually began to creep into the slots that make this deck such a power house. One weekend I noted the fifth or sixth time on the day that if the trinket Mage in my hand was a show and tell (which had been reduced to 3), I'd be winning or much better off; I realized that it is criminal to be skimping on one of the most powerful spells in legacy. Overall, I felt like all of the options afforded by GSZ, trinket and the like are just as often huge detours that cost time instead of purchase it. So I scaled it back a bit (like was suggested a few posts ago) to a more redundant build with more 3 ofs and 4 ofs. While the results may be a product of my play style, they have abruptly improved and I've won my last Sunday and Wednesday weekly legacy gatherings.
Here's what I am on now:
Post.
[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Townos
3 Pithing Needle
3 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
[SB]
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Chalice of the Void
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Notes:
-I am confident in the land base. 3 basics 3 vesuva is the right mix of keep able hands, resilient color base, while still maintaining the ability to do what this deck is designed for: abusing non linear mana ramp.
-Needle and Repeal cast a wide net as the answers, they are seldom dead and the redundancy eliminates the need for silver bullets, which endorses the direction I want - as said above.
-Oracle is here, still, because I still find it as the ultimate hedge between fifth Titan, blocker and, accelerant. The difference is here that you can go off with oracle alone! It's just great to me.
-4 show and tell is what this deck needs. The only deck in the format you don't want it against is opposing show and tell. Sure it might not be the ideal card in some matchups, but it is still very good. The line of casting show and tell (for Titan), getting it countered, only to cast the Titan the very next turn should be the primary line of play IMO, it's deadly and the build should support the likelyness of this occurring.
- it's two colors, I think you are all crazy on 3. Though your results seem good.
Any thoughts on this list? I'd love to get repeal 4 or needle 4 in there somewhere..
Some thoughts on recent topics from earlier posters:
-Needle is very good in the meta right now. On paper it's a liability but it is such an MVP. It is never dead. It's not "for" wasteland, but hell, if my line has the need for needle on waste - I'll take it! Plus glacial chasm is only a real "lock" if it can be fortified by needle in many matchups. I have 3, want 4. Trinket for 1 is not good enough.
-UW miracles is not a cake-walk. They have a lot of very real weapons against us. But now, with multiple needles and I side in 4 swan 4 force (I take out crop and SnT)- I've returned the matchup to bye-status.
-Krosan grip is bad; repeal, o-stone, counters, and ulamog trigger's are problem solvers that don't dilute the deck.
-Forest is great. Exactly as was said earlier, the two islands and a Titan scenario is so upsetting.
-Cavern - I move it in and out depending on the meta. It competes with island #2, but island #2 usually gets the call.
-Meekstone is good, but unnecessary. You should be winning against 3/x's and repealing delvers rather than trying to lock them out.
-breeding pool seems bad. Basics and more fetch IMO. My base doesn't feel color starved.
-candles are a requirement. 2 is the prevailing number for me based on testing and playing. It provides the right mixture of power while not being stranded late game often. Trinket for 1 is bad. 2 MD. It is pure rocket fuel.
- restore is bad. A joke even.
-Play brainstorm. While I do agree that this deck does mimic Merfolk when it comes to brainstorm vs just having redundancy- so what's the point? The deck does have a high amount of cards that you don't want in openers and can be dead in certain game states. The deck also struggles with discard. These two issues make brainstorm an obvious inclusion IMO.
-while I don't want a 7 mana spell in the deck - the comment of GSZ, X=6 over all is dust is a great point.
Sorry for the essay lol. But the real basic, proactive and redundant approach is working MUCH better for me, in actual practice rather than in theory. Has anyone else been feeling this way?
Have a good thanksgiving
Rock Lee is facing another Sourcer (akatsuki), playing BUG Delver, in Round 8 of SCG Prov.
Rootin' for ya bud! Go make Top 8 and take-all-the-turns!
Rock Lee on the feature match versus Death & Taxes! Do it!
EDIT: Game 3! If either player wins, they are guaranteed top 8.
EDIT(1): Game 3 goes to D&T, knocking Rock Lee out of top 8 contention. That Cataclysm was rough. Good run, though.
Last edited by Shawon; 11-24-2013 at 08:43 PM.
Bonefire of the Damned?! huh?! I can not wait to read his tournament report. Seems very interesting.
If you read the past pages, he's ran BotD to great effect and he won an Ice Imports tourney with his list, beating a MUD player twice in the same tourney.
I'm more interested in the SB Sneak Attacks.
I watched the match.If you read the past pages, he's ran BotD to great effect and he won an Ice Imports tourney with his list, beating a MUD player twice in the same tourney.
I'm more interested in the SB Sneak Attacks.
Interesting. But I think he overextended in the last game. The cataclysm was more than pretty obvious here.
Anyway bad luck with the top...4 or 5 turns (so 7 or 8 cards) to dig for lands without any success :-(
Congratz anyway ! Getting so far is already "something" !
And I would have loved to see people "bonfired" to death ahahahah !
A very interesting appraisal of "overextend" since I had exactly the mana needed to eye of ugin in response to an aven mindcensor. I was at exactly the mana necessary to do what I did, which was set up for a geddon/cataclysm.
Looking at 9 cards without a single land, needle, map was absurd though.
It is worth noting that I threw game 2 badly though. I was able to not focus on it for game three, but we never should have gone that far.
Nice work! I still can't believe how you pull of the RUG build, but it's sweet. I agree with how you played g3, brutal top luck post cataclysm though. I've played this MU a lot lately and found having more SnT available can increase the odds of a post Armageddon breakthrough. It's also just good against them in general IMO.
Do you side in force? I go back and forth but especially oh the draw if I can keep Thalia off the board for a few turns early or hold for cataclysm late it can be a huge difference.
Well to be more precise, actually this was a good play (to fetch for ugin + eldrazi in response to Aven) as you were already "that much" committed.
Nevertheless by "overextending" I mean the following:
"After playing your bonfire and sweeping your opponent board, you had "control of the game". At this very precise moment, I thought you were going to "draw-go-attack for 2" for a while (just in case of a cataclysm) as with your board state (and a top) you could have played the control game."
Maybe the result would not have been different and you would have lost anyway, but who knows.
Anyway, I feel like you think I'm judging where I am not, just giving my "way of thinking".
Again congratz.
You either didn't see the match closely, or were mistaken. Top was named with needle, the needle he sac'd to cataclysm. I had no manipulation, and he intitated his EOT with aven mindcensor. I had very few options in that case, and I went with the ones that involved me winning if I untapped, and even then winning likely anyway.
Even without manipulation (which is very likely to, as it was 3 a.m for me while watching your match and in very very poor quality...)
Congrats for your result Jeremiah! A question about your list... when did you side-in the couple of sneak attacks?
I was also wondering when you would side in the sneak attacks im not really sure what they would be good vs, the blood moon matchups? Also I was wondering why you cut 2 vesuva from the main deck. I am trying to fiddle with the deck atm and fit in the bonfires but my list is at around 67 cards trying to cut those 7.
PS Great work at scg!
Anything that runs heavy discard, blood moon, or mana denial. Ie, lots.
So Mavrick, Rug, Sneak, Dnt, Merfolf, American, Like all of those decks?
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