[Deck] Solidarity

[Xin]

That's what i thought too, but usually i'm not able to generate 40+ mana by turn 4/5, and in turn 3/4 a S&T deck usually swings with his 15/15 annihilator

Edit:
Here is my list

17 island

3 snapcaster mage

4 high tide
4 reset
3 turnabout
4 impulse
3 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 remand
2 snap
1 peek
1 blue sun's zenith
1 brain freeze
4 opt
3 meditate

SB

1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 meditate
1 turnabout
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 wipe away
1 pact of negation
2 venser, shaper servant
1 mindbreak trap / stifle
1 rebuild
1 snap
2 misdirection



Do you run fetches? Because those 4 brainstorm are a real pain if you can't shuffle, and i don't really like wasting an impulse or an opt to get rid of bad draws.
If yes, are you not afraid of stifle? (even if a stifle on a fetch is much better than a stifle on a brain freeze)

[GoldenCid]

Do you run fetches? Because those 4 brainstorm are a real pain if you can't shuffle, and i don't really like wasting an impulse or an opt to get rid of bad draws.
If yes, are you not afraid of stifle? (even if a stifle on a fetch is much better than a stifle on a brain freeze)

You DO NEED fecthes! Stifle is a minor risk compared to the improve fetches give you!

[benthetenor]

That's what i thought too, but usually i'm not able to generate 40+ mana by turn 4/5, and in turn 3/4 a S&T deck usually swings with his 15/15 annihilator

Edit:
Here is my list

17 island

3 snapcaster mage

4 high tide
4 reset
3 turnabout
4 impulse
3 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 remand
2 snap
1 peek
1 blue sun's zenith
1 brain freeze
4 opt
3 meditate

SB

1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 meditate
1 turnabout
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 wipe away
1 pact of negation
2 venser, shaper servant
1 mindbreak trap / stifle
1 rebuild
1 snap
2 misdirection



Do you run fetches? Because those 4 brainstorm are a real pain if you can't shuffle, and i don't really like wasting an impulse or an opt to get rid of bad draws.
If yes, are you not afraid of stifle? (even if a stifle on a fetch is much better than a stifle on a brain freeze)

It would likely be best for you if you started with a standard list and goldfished it a hundred times before you make any tweaks. If you're having any issues at all with beating something as simple as an Emrakul in their deck, you need to practice a lot more.

[Xin]

It would likely be best for you if you started with a standard list and goldfished it a hundred times before you make any tweaks. If you're having any issues at all with beating something as simple as an Emrakul in their deck, you need to practice a lot more.

Don't be cocky and say something constructive, otherwise i might think you posted just to show off

[Darkenslight]

Don't be cocky and say something constructive, otherwise i might think you posted just to show off

Okay, here's something constructive:

Fetches reduce the number of dead draws in your deck. You will fizzle far more because you drew too many Islands. Ideally, you should go for 11-12 Islands/6 fetchlands across the Blue spectrum (Tarn, Strand, Delta, Rainforest). This deck is one of the most complicated decks you are likely to play in Legacy. Therefore, I also recommend at least 150 hours of testing. Not 150 games, 150 hours. And test against the Gauntlet - Stoneforge, ANT/TES, D&T, MUD, Delver, Merfolk. You want at least 50 matches against each, ideally against competent pilots. That testing will reward you in the long run.

MY suggestions for the maindeck are:

-1 Reset
-1 Peek
+2 Gitaxian Probe

and for the SB:

-1 Snap
+1 Reset

But then, that would warrant extensive testing before confirming for certain.

[SirTylerGalt]

MY suggestions for the maindeck are:

-1 Reset
-1 Peek
+2 Gitaxian Probe

and for the SB:

-1 Snap
+1 Reset

But then, that would warrant extensive testing before confirming for certain.

Probe is a Sorcery, which means it would need to be *very good* to be played in Solidarity, since they would be blanks when drawn mid-combo. I'd rather play Peek.

*If* sorceries were an option, I would play Merchant Scroll...

[benthetenor]

My constructive statement is: play a standard version of the deck, and play at least 100 games. You don't have to, you can do whatever you'd like. But the problems that you're having with the deck are being caused by having a poor build of the deck and by having almost no idea what you're doing when you're playing. The only way to fix that is to play lots of games. A quicker way is to read this entire thread, then read the old Solidarity thread, then start playing some games. If you can't do either of those, you will lose with this deck. Consistently. Blow me off at your own peril.

[Darkenslight]

Probe is a Sorcery, which means it would need to be *very good* to be played in Solidarity, since they would be blanks when drawn mid-combo. I'd rather play Peek.

*If* sorceries were an option, I would play Merchant Scroll...

Indeed. I am a tool. *slaps self* And yes, MScroll would be the best-played sorcery in Solidarity. Please disregard my fail.

[SirTylerGalt]

My constructive statement is: play a standard version of the deck, and play at least 100 games. You don't have to, you can do whatever you'd like. But the problems that you're having with the deck are being caused by having a poor build of the deck and by having almost no idea what you're doing when you're playing. The only way to fix that is to play lots of games. A quicker way is to read this entire thread, then read the old Solidarity thread, then start playing some games. If you can't do either of those, you will lose with this deck. Consistently. Blow me off at your own peril.

Hey benthetenor,

I want to bring Solidarity to my local tournaments. I don't think it's tier 1, but it would be fun to win a tournament with it.

My latest list was a modified version of a list you posted last year (with Snapcaser / Snap / Remand). I'm interested in the list you would play if you were to play Solidarity in today's metagame :) Would you go for Remand, Snap, or a mix of both? What about Repeal maindeck? What are your thoughts on Swan Song?


Edit:
Also, it would be great if we had some sort of primer for the more recent iterations of Solidarity. A lot of cards have been printed since 2008, and I'm not sure the original list is playable in today's metagame. We need some kind of official "standard list" that includes Snapcaster Mage and other recent printings.

[fuga]

How do you deal with the reshuffle effect of Emrakul?

Xin if you go back with this tread you can find the solution about how to play agains the emrakul's trigger. It's so strange to still hear some questions....benthetenor just said this and I agree with him.

MY suggestions for the maindeck are:

-1 Reset
-1 Peek
+2 Gitaxian Probe

and for the SB:

-1 Snap
+1 Reset

But then, that would warrant extensive testing before confirming for certain.

About it.....how is it possible to side out 1x reset?! It is blasphemous ;D

[benthetenor]

I think that, once you're good with this deck, there's a lot of room for finesse and personal preference when it comes to which cards to play and in what numbers. I think if you're asking me what I would consider to be a "standard" list with Snap and Snapcaster Mage, this is what I would play:


10 Island
8 Blue Fetchlands

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Peek
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
13 other cards

This is the most bare-bones, most consistently good version of the deck that I can come up with. It has strengths and weaknesses in comparison to versions that don't lean so heavily on Snap, but by and large, this is the fastest version of the deck I can play and it's reasonably consistent and has more than enough play to beat any deck. There are tweaks that I personally would make, many of which I've talked about over the last few pages of discussion, but if you were starting from scratch and trying to learn how to play and win with this deck, this is the list I would advocate. If you cannot win with this list, you need to slow down and figure out why you're having problems, and then take steps to correct them. Not an option, not a suggestion. Read the thread if you can't figure out what you're doing wrong. This version minimizes bad top-decks and maximizes your ability to go off on turn 3 (which, of course, isn't a guarantee, but this build can do it more easily than any other), which gives you all of the flexibility you could possibly want to learn when to go off against what decks and how to play around counterspells/removal/graveyard hate/discard. When you can consistently beat any opponent with this version of the deck, then you will have enough experience to be able to make changes that suit your playstyle and preferences, and frankly at that point you'll fully understand what I mean when I say that all that I say about this deck is little more than an educated opinion. But if you're not at that level yet, you're only hurting yourself by taking wild stabs in the dark if you deviate from this list.

[SirTylerGalt]

I think that, once you're good with this deck, there's a lot of room for finesse and personal preference when it comes to which cards to play and in what numbers. I think if you're asking me what I would consider to be a "standard" list with Snap and Snapcaster Mage, this is what I would play:


10 Island
8 Blue Fetchlands

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Peek
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
13 other cards

This is the most bare-bones, most consistently good version of the deck that I can come up with. It has strengths and weaknesses in comparison to versions that don't lean so heavily on Snap, but by and large, this is the fastest version of the deck I can play and it's reasonably consistent and has more than enough play to beat any deck. There are tweaks that I personally would make, many of which I've talked about over the last few pages of discussion, but if you were starting from scratch and trying to learn how to play and win with this deck, this is the list I would advocate. If you cannot win with this list, you need to slow down and figure out why you're having problems, and then take steps to correct them. Not an option, not a suggestion. Read the thread if you can't figure out what you're doing wrong. This version minimizes bad top-decks and maximizes your ability to go off on turn 3 (which, of course, isn't a guarantee, but this build can do it more easily than any other), which gives you all of the flexibility you could possibly want to learn when to go off against what decks and how to play around counterspells/removal/graveyard hate/discard. When you can consistently beat any opponent with this version of the deck, then you will have enough experience to be able to make changes that suit your playstyle and preferences, and frankly at that point you'll fully understand what I mean when I say that all that I say about this deck is little more than an educated opinion. But if you're not at that level yet, you're only hurting yourself by taking wild stabs in the dark if you deviate from this list.

Cool list. Thanks!

I need to try the 10 island / 8 fetch build. It was discussed before, but I've always stayed with the 12 island / 6 fetch version. True-Name Nemesis is pushing RUG Delver out of the format, so I guess Stifle is not a big concern anymore :)

I see that you no longer play Visions of Beyond as a 1-of, so the Brain Freezes are mainly there for "small wins", as a tutor for Snapcaster Mage, as a way to win against CB, and as a trick to brainstorm away lands.

I also need to test 4 Snap instead of a split of 2 Snap / 2 Remand. Snap is an awesome business spell when used right. I just like Remand tricks so much though... :)


Anyway, I'll try that build for a while :)

[benthetenor]

To be clear, if I were to take Solidarity to a tournament tomorrow, this is not the build I would run; there are tweaks that I would make based upon years of experience and personal preferences, none of which I'm going to talk about here as it will simply cause more confusion. Besides which, as I said, my personal preferences towards the deck should have no bearing on the build that you play. That's why they're personal preferences. But I do want to comment on some of your questions, to clarify.

Stifle on a fetchland has never been a huge concern for me. Which is not to say it can't happen, but much more that the difference between playing 6 and 8 Fetchlands has almost no impact on your vulnerability to Stifle; you're just about as likely to draw a hand full of fetchlands against an opponent with Stifle with 6 fetches as with 8. Trimming on Fetchlands to hedge against Stifle makes no sense since the most likely thing is that they will have one, maybe two Stifles, which are just as likely to get you with 6 fetches as with 8. The most important part of beating Stifle with this deck is learning how to play around Stifles out of RUG Delver, not trimming a card that's great for you because you're scared of an imaginary opponent with three Stifle in hand. If you really didn't want to get a fetchland Stifled, then you should be playing a deck with no fetchlands. The key for me has been that playing with 8 fetchlands instead of 6 gives you the opportunity to fetch out, on average, one extra land every other game, which does a lot to decrease the number of dead draws mid-combo by thinning the deck of extra lands. This is especially important when you're trying to go off on three lands, as the difference between having fetched twice and three times is really fairly large. All that being said, this is a preference of mine, one that I feel has proven itself enough to be considered to be standard in any list I would recommend, but the deck functions well with 6 fetchlands, and always has.

Brain Freeze did not need Visions of Beyond to be great, it already had Flash of Insight in the old builds (and Snapcaster Mage in the new ones) along with Brainstorm as cards that played well with it. Having two means that a) you don't have to dig through your entire deck to find one and b) you are stronger against counterspells because it becomes feasible to simply have two Brain Freeze in hand to double-freeze them at the end of a counter war and win anyway. You win with Brain Freeze, and it is the least dead kill-condition of any combo deck I've ever played. It's not like Tendrils of Agony in Storm or Progenitus in a Natural Order deck, in that there's no need to shuffle it back with a Brainstorm if it's in your opener or if you draw it at an incorrect time. Playing with only one increases the number of times that you have to super go-off and draw your entire deck before you find a kill condition, which leads to sloppy, haymaker plays that are much more vulernerable to disruption. Naturally drawing your Brain Freezes lets you win small, forcing you to consider more efficient lines of play for shorter kills that have less of a chance of something going wrong, which increases the consistency and viability of this deck. You don't need any one card or line of play to win, which is a strength. And you need every strength you can with this deck; the cards just aren't all that powerful in and of themselves.

[lavafrogg]

Just ordered my snaps and BSZ to start updating this deck from back when it was one of the "big three" . Im excited, anything really change in the past couple of years other than the exile change?

[Ralf]

Just ordered my snaps and BSZ to start updating this deck from back when it was one of the "big three" . Im excited, anything really change in the past couple of years other than the exile change?

Good luck with all the tempo around !

[SirTylerGalt]

Just ordered my snaps and BSZ to start updating this deck from back when it was one of the "big three" . Im excited, anything really change in the past couple of years other than the exile change?

Stroke of Genius is usually better than BSZ if you play Snapcaster Mage.

[lavafrogg]

I am planning on a 4 snap 4 remand list with no force of wills and 3-4 twin casts, between twin cast and snapcaster mage/snap I think I should be able to dance around counter magic and hate bears to a reasonable degree. Echoing truth in the board to bounce all of my mages for uber combo ability.

Rough List:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Snap
4 Remand
3 Twin cast
4 High Tide
4 Reset

4 Impulse
4 Thought scour
4 Brainstorm
3 Meditate

3 Cunning Wish
3 Brain Freeze

7 Fetchlands
10 islands

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith/stroke of genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 wipe away
1 chain of vapor
1 rebuild
1 pact of negation
1 mind break trap

Take one.

One stroke: Duh, it goes to the graveyard…I'm dumb

[igormagic]

To be clear, if I were to take Solidarity to a tournament tomorrow, this is not the build I would run; there are tweaks that I would make based upon years of experience and personal preferences, none of which I'm going to talk about here as it will simply cause more confusion. Besides which, as I said, my personal preferences towards the deck should have no bearing on the build that you play. That's why they're personal preferences. But I do want to comment on some of your questions, to clarify.

Stifle on a fetchland has never been a huge concern for me. Which is not to say it can't happen, but much more that the difference between playing 6 and 8 Fetchlands has almost no impact on your vulnerability to Stifle; you're just about as likely to draw a hand full of fetchlands against an opponent with Stifle with 6 fetches as with 8. Trimming on Fetchlands to hedge against Stifle makes no sense since the most likely thing is that they will have one, maybe two Stifles, which are just as likely to get you with 6 fetches as with 8. The most important part of beating Stifle with this deck is learning how to play around Stifles out of RUG Delver, not trimming a card that's great for you because you're scared of an imaginary opponent with three Stifle in hand. If you really didn't want to get a fetchland Stifled, then you should be playing a deck with no fetchlands. The key for me has been that playing with 8 fetchlands instead of 6 gives you the opportunity to fetch out, on average, one extra land every other game, which does a lot to decrease the number of dead draws mid-combo by thinning the deck of extra lands. This is especially important when you're trying to go off on three lands, as the difference between having fetched twice and three times is really fairly large. All that being said, this is a preference of mine, one that I feel has proven itself enough to be considered to be standard in any list I would recommend, but the deck functions well with 6 fetchlands, and always has.

Brain Freeze did not need Visions of Beyond to be great, it already had Flash of Insight in the old builds (and Snapcaster Mage in the new ones) along with Brainstorm as cards that played well with it. Having two means that a) you don't have to dig through your entire deck to find one and b) you are stronger against counterspells because it becomes feasible to simply have two Brain Freeze in hand to double-freeze them at the end of a counter war and win anyway. You win with Brain Freeze, and it is the least dead kill-condition of any combo deck I've ever played. It's not like Tendrils of Agony in Storm or Progenitus in a Natural Order deck, in that there's no need to shuffle it back with a Brainstorm if it's in your opener or if you draw it at an incorrect time. Playing with only one increases the number of times that you have to super go-off and draw your entire deck before you find a kill condition, which leads to sloppy, haymaker plays that are much more vulernerable to disruption. Naturally drawing your Brain Freezes lets you win small, forcing you to consider more efficient lines of play for shorter kills that have less of a chance of something going wrong, which increases the consistency and viability of this deck. You don't need any one card or line of play to win, which is a strength. And you need every strength you can with this deck; the cards just aren't all that powerful in and of themselves.

Hello Benthetenor,

which list you are currently running? With Visions of Beyond? You could list?

What do you think of Swan Song this deck? how many would be ideal to use?

thanks

[SirTylerGalt]

I am planning on a 4 snap 4 remand list with no force of wills and 3-4 twin casts, between twin cast and snapcaster mage/snap I think I should be able to dance around counter magic and hate bears to a reasonable degree. Echoing truth in the board to bounce all of my mages for uber combo ability.

Rough List:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Snap
4 Remand
3 Twin cast
4 High Tide
4 Reset

4 Impulse
4 Thought scour
4 Brainstorm
3 Meditate

3 Cunning Wish
3 Brain Freeze

7 Fetchlands
10 islands

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith/stroke of genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 wipe away
1 chain of vapor
1 rebuild
1 pact of negation
1 mind break trap

Take one.

One stroke: Duh, it goes to the graveyard…I'm dumb

A few observations:
- Tought Scour seems underpowered. I'd replace them with 3 Peek / 1 Visions of Beyond (which becomes an Ancestral Recall mid-combo thanks to Brain Freeze). Other options include Opt and Peek.
- I would play the 4th Snapcaster Mage before playing the 4th Snap. Snapcaster Mage is more useful on its own, and in some non-creature matchups, Snap is useless without Snapcaster Mage. Also, it's always funny to cast Echoing Truth with 4 SCMs in play.
- 3 Brain Freeze main deck is a lot. I would go down to 2, adding an 18th land.
- I think we could go down to 2-3 FoW, but 0 seems dangerous. FoW helps a lot against random decks, and it answers a lot of problematic cards. I could see going to 3 FoW / 2 Flusterstorm maindeck though, or even adding Repeal to bounce problematic permanents (does not work against Chalice though).

[lavafrogg]

A few observations:
- Tought Scour seems underpowered. I'd replace them with 3 Peek / 1 Visions of Beyond (which becomes an Ancestral Recall mid-combo thanks to Brain Freeze). Other options include Opt and Peek.
- I would play the 4th Snapcaster Mage before playing the 4th Snap. Snapcaster Mage is more useful on its own, and in some non-creature matchups, Snap is useless without Snapcaster Mage. Also, it's always funny to cast Echoing Truth with 4 SCMs in play.
- 3 Brain Freeze main deck is a lot. I would go down to 2, adding an 18th land.
- I think we could go down to 2-3 FoW, but 0 seems dangerous. FoW helps a lot against random decks, and it answers a lot of problematic cards. I could see going to 3 FoW / 2 Flusterstorm maindeck though, or even adding Repeal to bounce problematic permanents (does not work against Chalice though).

Thoughtscour has been pretty good so far in testing. Biting off bad brainstorms or "drawing" three, due to snapcaster, has been everything that a peek/opt would be doing.

Snapcaster mages have been bumped to 4 and twin casts have been removed for the time being as I put in turnabouts again to ensure I can tap all of their creatures post combo.

Keeping on the graveyard matters theme, could intuition be used as our demonic tutor of choice, to ensure we go off on turn 4?