Thanks a lot, Dzra and ivanpei! That was enlightening.
Will definitely have to try out the deck some time. Seems scary fighting the stack, the board, the opponent and the clock all at once, but those wins gotta feel deserved.
For anybody else curious about how this deck works in practice, I'll happily second the recommendation of the Joe Lossett stream: http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/
(Props to Joe for not deleting videos of himself screwing up, btw).
Add more land.
I don't know why I'm actually thinking about this, but I might try this list out one Friday night legacy event.
Veteran Miracles
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Porphyry Nodes
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
Porphyry Nodes is acting as my sac outlet for Veteran Explorer as well as something to go with Swords to help control the board while I'm sitting around durdling.
C'mon guys, just play Land Tax.
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Land tax doesn't ramp.
Neither does Miracles.
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Originally Posted by matunos
Not yet.
So what are the chances of True-Name Nemesis pushing Elves and Maverick completely out of the meta? I'm sorely tempted to max out on Supreme Verdicts, but Gaddock Teeg would present an issue.
1) why should Elves give a crap about TNN if they machine-gun wirh DRS or just trample over the 1 point of thoughness?
2) Mother of Runes make your Goofies and Knights unblockable for TNN
3) running more Karakas against Teeg, SneakShow, etc. while playing Clique yourself is good
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Stop talking about Explorer in Miracle, just stop!
I did top8 the Legacy Championship at GP Vienna (65 ppl) (placed 2nd after the Swiss -there were no elimination-rounds) with my list posted earlier.
Ill post more details in the days to come:
I won against:
No Opponent, Miracles, Esper, Jund, TES, UWr Control
and I lost against:
Ub OmniTell
after the event I challenged the guy placing first with RUG Delver and beat him 2-0.
Deck ran smooth, more info, backgrounds and pictures to be added :D
Greetings
People have the rights to discuss Miracle builds. As long as the discussion is Miracle related, even if it's a bad build, what's your expectation the moment you tell them to stop doing whatever they were doing? What do you think people's reaction would be? Yes sir?
This is... barely relevant to Miracle. If you're discussing about TNN's impact on pushing Elves and Mav out of Meta, then why not discuss that in SCD thread for TNN?
Because deciding whether or not to cut anti-Teeg cards for more anti-Nemesis cards is relevant to Miracles' interests. I can only MD so many Karakas and I think discussing metagame shifts is much more enlightening than talking about non-starters like splashing Green for Explorer.
I agree that Elves and Maverick might not care about TNN in particular, but surely more Jittes in the meta is going to be a bad thing for them. Being able to put all those Jittes on hexproof unblockable duders is just gravy. Maybe it won't affect them at all and in that case I'm going to have to think of a good way to deal with Teeg in addition to TNN since there don't appear to be answers that hit them both.
Deluge can hit both.
Anyway I run 2 Karakas and along wish Venser/StP I don't fear teeg mostly.
Clique has been terrible for me in non combo mus in the main. Usually my opponents are sitting on a pile of otherwise dead in removal, and get to use it on Clique. Having counterbalance and top on the table to protect clique is win more as if you have that you should be winning already.
I'm thinking of running the 3rd Entreat and a Detention Sphere instead of md cliques. It just isn't working out against anything non combo.
If anything about the TNN driven meta, it's becoming possible for miracle players to disguise the deck at the beginning. Turn 1 Volanic Island can mean many many decks, even Tundra now opens more possibility. Of course this is more fitting for SCG-sized events, doesn't work if you are Joe or if you are attending a local Legacy event.
I have found cliques to be an MVP. He helps the deck answer a resolved Jace or Lily (which are otherwise tough to deal with). Against stoneforge decks cliquing in response to a stoneforge activation always feels really good. Post board it puts StpS decks in awkward spot where if they leave in SptS it is usually dead, but if they take it out they will lose to a 3/1 with flying.
Also, I think we are at the point where the only reason to not being running a moat is budget restriction. The card is that good right now.
You do realize Humility turns Sneak and Show dudes into 1/1 while Moat does nothing AND Humility does the same to TNN... etc, do you? Let's check, yeap, Sneak and Show took 1st place at Providence.
Don't compare those cards. They do not fill similar roles, they just happen to both be enchantments for 4 mana.
Humility is great against sneak and show, but so are a lot of other cards.
Humility doesnt really do anything good against decks moat is good against. Elves, Jund, SFM decks (D&T, stoneblade), goblins, fish, etc could all care less if their guys are 1/1s with no abilities. They will still either play a million of them, or not care and keep only playing 1 at a time and putting equipment on them. Against those decks moat means they cant attack, period. No losing to 1/1s because you cant find creature/equipment removal.
While you are at it, you should make more suggestions like dropping Rest in Peace - that card does nothing against Sneak and Show. Please do keep going with your logic, not mine; your comment is amusing though.
Thanks for missing the point completely.
I am shocked to learn that moat means those decks can't attack, period, thanks for explaining what moat does, that's definitely a revelation only you have discovered.
Why do you think Humility means you will lose to 1/1s while Moat means you will not lose to creatures? If it's that simple, I wish Goblins would stop playing Seige-gang commander.
This debate has been argued before, really lame at this point. The bottom line is really about SB space and Meta. If I'm going to a LGS small Legacy competition with lots of Goblins and Merfolk, yeah, I'll favor Moat in the SB. But for everything else, especially unknown and SCG like events, Humility will be in that SB slot.
This debate feels old, but I'll chime in anyways. Humility is a great anti-Sneak Attack card, possibly the best. How about we compare it with another anti-Sneak Attack card like Pithing Needle? Should I run Humility or should I run Pithing Needle? Humility has some applications against creature decks, Pithing Needle is good against various random permanents. Humility is really bad against equipment (even making Batterskull a 4 turn as opposed to 5 turn clock). Pithing Needle is great against equipment. Maybe I should run both if I am really worried about Sneak Attack.
Now let's look at Moat. It shuts off almost every midranged and aggressive creature in the format, the big exceptions being Delver, Serra Avenger, and Flickerwisp. Maybe I should run Moat instead of another sweeper or removal spell?
The two actually have very little in common other than being enchantments for.
I don't think this is true. I have only played with it once in a real event (SCG Denver 2012). And while I won the tournament, Moat did almost nothing the entire day. That could be due to matchups, or just my not drawing it that often. Either way, I'm still not playing it now. It might be really good against a lot of decks when it is in play, but how often does that happen? I am too afraid of taxing counters to just run it out there. Players who keep in counters against Delver decks might be able to argue differently. But with the way I board I just can't see it working out.
This is my removal package maindeck:
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus (or 3+1 Supreme Verdict)
1 Rest in Peace
The only card there that might be unworthy is the RIP. And that is only because American Delver might push RUG Delver into a smaller slice of the metagame. For much of the past year, RIP has almost been the same as a Moat, for half the mana. Moat is better against Tribal decks, and RIP is good against graveyard decks. I think the RIP easily won the spot. Now things are different, maybe. Owen's UWr is obviously a strong deck. But I'm not sure it is better than RUG. I lost a few matches against his list until I started remembering to play as if Stifle didn't exist. Now I am back to winning enough of the time to be satisfied. Would Moat help? In a matchup where RIP doesn't do anything, yes it probably would. I have a real problem with depending on a permanent to keep me alive though. I can imagine a lot of situations where Moat is on the board, and then it gets removed and I die instantly.
Even if the RIP gets cut out of the main, that seriously messes with the Counterbalance curve and might require further alterations. But what about putting Moat into the board? For simplicity, let's assume that it will trade with a card that already comes in against Delver decks.
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wear//Tear
1 Entreat the Angels
Out of that, the card I think we can most live without is the 2nd Explosives. This meshes well with several other matchups where Moat could also replace Explosives. Inconveniently there are also decks where Moat would want to come in but Explosives does not, like Jund. This could be fixed by boarding out a Terminus. The real problem though are the decks with cards affected by Explosives but not by Moat. I am thinking mostly of Painter/Grindstone, Chalice of the Void, Empty the Warrens, and Counterbalance. Against any deck containing one of those, substituting Moat for Explosives is going to be a big minus.
Is that okay? Honestly, it might be. Just by writing this out I have almost convinced myself. There are also other options. From the American Delver sideboard list, the next card I could probably live without is the extra Entreat (and that feels like it would be a massive change). Other builds not playing the card would have to examine their own sideboarding patterns to decide whether Moat made sense for them.
To summarize,
No I don't think not playing Moat is only a budget issue. However it is possible that I could be wrong. I will put some more thought into this before the Invitational coming up in two weeks.
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