I think the move towards more solid bodies like Avenger help us mitigate this. My plan before TNN was released was to beef up the creature base slightly in a move to counter the increase in hate I was expecting, which is even more likely now that the deck has a couple more high profile finishes, not to mention the presence of you-know-who. Avenger, Crusader and Stoneforge are all resistant to the first -1/-1 (and if its Sulfur Elemental, actually get significantly better ;) ), and Avenger further helps resist P Fire, although we are still a complete dog to Jund without some serious modifications / luck, so that's a bit besides the point. Suffice to say, I think going back to Avengers helps more than it hurts.Originally Posted by Barook
Unfortunately, Mom, Revoker, Thalia and Flickerwisp are all too good to replace so we'll have to deal with the hate as it comes. Revoker, at least, dodges Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental... FWIW, I don't play Mindcensor (never felt like I needed it, 3cmc is a lot for a 2/1), and cut Mangara down to 1 copy main (who often gets sided out anyway before hate can come in).
On the other topics -
I think Celestial Crusader is cool (Split Second is nice) but there is just no way I'm going to be happy leaving 4 mana open most of the time; I really want to be Port-ing aggressively as much as possible, which obviously ties up mana, and thus favour the lower curve in general (Avenger also is easier to cast when you are doing a bunch of stuff with your land turn after turn, which is another point for the beatstick).
^ The same argument applies for Wing Shards, and even though its old, as Finn said people will see it coming and there is no guarantee that we'll get more than a 1 for 1 from it anyway. I'd rather just play a Sunlance or Path if I'm worried about aggro and hope to beat out TNN by going over/through with fliers/SoFaI.
As for SoFaI, I'm still keeping it in the board to have a bit more consistency for G1s but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting a bit more equipment main. Its good lategame, and if you're being locked out by removal, drawing a creature isn't going to help much either.
I'm not a fan of Ratchet Bomb... it's REALLY slow and threatens too much splash damage for my liking.
---
All in all I think we're still really well positioned as long as a large portion of people continue playing SnT, Storm and to a lesser degree tempo (RUG is definitely preferable to UWR). Still haven't tested extensively vs Esper or BUG so I can't say much about those.
It'll take more testing but Elves doesn't even seem like as bad a match as I expected; last week I vialed in a Canonist in response to Glimpse. Spicy. I think the key here is just having enough in the side that's good vs elves AND all the other unfair decks - Canonist is my MVP so far, and Grafdigger's Cage is growing on me. Avenger also flies over their dudes here, which is nice when you need a clock vs the somewhat inevitable NO or hardcast 'Hoof
---
Also - Hello fellow D&Ters! I've been waiting to be able to grind with this deck for a while and I'm stoked on it. I think when its all said and done this is a really good deck in a good position in the meta. Long live monoW AetherVial!
Looking for some honest input here, as I am undecided on the aggro or control versions of this deck. My list is as follows:
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 vial
4 STP
4 sfm
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sofi
3 wisp
2 crusader
2 avenger
1 spells kite
1 mangara
1 sunlance
4 waste
4 port
4 karakas
10 snow covered plains
Sideboard:
2 e tutor
2 rip
2 canonist
2 liege
1 needle
1 relic warder
1 o ring
1 manriki gusari
2 ratchet bomb
1 sunlance
Thoughts?
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Last edited by Barbed Blightning; 11-15-2013 at 05:47 PM.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I'd cut the maindeck Sunlance, probably for an additional land (Canopy or another Plains). It's good as a 1-of in the side against tribal and Delver/Shaman decks, but unless you are preparing for a pretty narrow meta, I wouldn't consider maindecking it.
I've tested the more aggro-oriented BOM build a little and it seems really good against a lot of the field. Probably an upgrade over the GP version. One thing though, if you are cutting Mangara, you kinda need Cataclysm in the SB imo...
After close to a year and a half on Elves! i'm finally switching to D&T (mostly to learn more about my own deck since it's probably it's worst match up) and to keep my mind fresh.
Anything I should really be aware? I've built the deck yesterday since we had 95% of the cards in our card pool.
Is there a big difference between the 2 Canopy and 1 Canopy build? I understand the whole trick with E Tutor in the S&T match up, but what would bring you towards the 2 canopy vs the 1? Budget restrictions?
Cheers
I cut the number of canopy to one for sake of blood moon and wasteland, I just want more solid mana base.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
The current list I've build runs 10 Plains.
But, thanks for your input! Im trying to get a better understanding of the whole deck before facing opponents this Thursday!
Do you have a list we can look at? With discussion on D&T strategy it's crucial to look at the build vs the expected meta, as this deck is very much about becoming your opponent's foil, creating an environment in which your deck thrives and theirs simply cannot. I usually think about it a like martial arts.
A brief rundown of the all-stars of the deck:
Aether Vial: this card was the reason Finn made the deck to begin with--he wrote an article on how the card was broken and, after receiving a tepid response, decided to prove it. It's crucial for our deck to say the least, both to enable our mana denial plan and to perform our many creature tricks.
Mother of Runes: she is what keeps our haters alive and hating, as well as serving a hate roll herself: blanking removal and attacks or blocks.
Thalia: for the decks where resolving many spells is crucial (Tempo and Combo), Thalia simply is the best. Her first strike is very relevant, surprisingly.
Phyrexian Revoker: important things to remember: 1. He can hit mana abilities. 2. He is colorless, so he can sneak by opposing moms. 3. His ability never triggers, so there's nothing to respond to (like lava man, jitte, etc). 4. You can totally play him off a S&T and name what they play without them ever getting a chance to respond.
Remember: D&T is a difficult deck. Like most Legacy decks it has many nuances that allow for great victories and tremendous losses. It's not inconsistent; just complicated and, unlike many other decks, it requires you to understand your opponent's deck quickly in order to best slow them down. Underground Sea -> Ponder could mean a lot of different decks, but if the next turn play is Tarmogoyf or Duress then you need to know what your role will be in the matchup and which hate bear to play.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I don't have the current list with me since I'm still at work, but Ill post it tonight and I am actually looking forward to discuss more in details of the actual strategic choices and such.
Again,
Thanks!
Played at my weekly last night, 36 players, four rounds, had a nearly flawless record. At the last moment I guilted myself into playing Mangara--and was so glad I did.
The List:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cataclysm
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Celestial Flare
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Matches were:
1) Zoo (2-0): He apparently has played this matchup and hates it, especially game two when I Cataclysmed, leaving behind a plains and a batterskull--then drop Port for the turn. :)
2) Forgemaster MUD (2-1): Karn turn three was GG game one. Then I had all the land destruction games two and three--with best friends SFM and Batterskull pummeling him.
3) BURG Tempo (piloted by Sourcer phazonmuant!, 2-0): Like the RUG matchup, fairly easy--though more complicated due to the presence of DRS, Decay and -1/-1 effects out of the board. Game one I destroy all of his lands and finish the game with 2 Wisps, a Revoker on DRS and active Mangara vs his completely empty board. I removed my Wisps and Mangaras (3 and 2) in favor of Liege, RIP and Flare. Game two goes on long since I kept risky non basics-vial hand--and it pays off. Liege is apparently impossible for that deck to kill, and 4/4 Avenger was nice. :) Game ends with an SFM + SoFI.
4) ID with Burn, since I'd rather have the reduced grand prize and time to grab a quick beer at the Mox Cafe.
Observations:
Celestial Flare is actually kind of badass. It helped vs Zoo and while my BURG opponent totally caught onto what I was trying to do (since he knew I had a SoFI in hand and only two mana up in game two) having it still felt nice, esp. since all he had were Mongeese.
I doubt I would have missed Mindcensor. There are no Elves in Seattle (that I've seen) so the "Gotcha!" effect would never have been useful. Even as a one-off removal, Mangara is still great.
Very happy I came back to the deck. Feel a little foolish for leaving in the first place, but I did get the chance to understand the nuances of other decks.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Yo fellas, I'm playing Enevoldsens 75 in a ~50 man tournament in 12 hours and since I am a bit new to the deck I would love if anyone could help me with my sideboarding plans. The 75 are:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
23 lands
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
26 creatures
4 Ęther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
11 other spells
Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sunlance
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
15 sideboard cards
I feel like I have boarded IN decently enough, but am never really sure what I'm supposed to board out. I'm not really asking for specific ins/outs for every MU (I can list like 5-8 archetypes I bet I can see tomorrow so...) but rather in a general sense what goes in and out against archetypes, etc.
Thankful for any help I can get!
Check out Wescoe's GP report. He posts sb plans with that 75.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11516
TPDMC
Geez. I look everywhere except on good ole TCGPlayer, of course. Thanks a bunch!
Switching to Death and Taxes from Goblins because I don't want to lose against Nemesis. Any tips for a relatively new D&T player? I have played the deck before and know what it does. I just want advice on how to start learning to play the deck. My list is basically the GP top8 list.
PM me if you want, but the first thing I'd recommend is running Mangara of Corondor. I fiddled with the GP list for a bit, but found that having Mango back in the deck helped smooth over many matches.
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"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
So I decided to take a break from Jund and threw this together.
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Ęther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sunlance
3 Cards I forget
Anyway, I played 4 rounds in 2 win-a-boxes, lost 2nd round both times. I played the deck poorly, but picked up as the rounds progressed. Also played a whole bunch of games against friends at GP Toronto.
First, the good.
- This deck is fantastic at getting you out of a bad spot. I can't quite explain it until I get more experience, but it seems to just get what it needs out of nowhere.
- Flickerwisp is too great for words.
- It smokes a lot of decks, combo decks especially. The disruption comes at it from so many angles. Hypergenesis and Affinity seem like awesome matchups (again from limited testing). I can imagine Show and Tell to be quite good too.
- The learning curve seems high, but it seems to reward you.
- Fiend Hunter is amazing.
The bad.
- I keep mulliganning like crazy. I mulliganned every match. Mull to 4 and 5 were shockingly common.
- UWR delver was both my losses. Delvers and TNN are a menace when backed with their disruption. I will read this threat to see if I missed a key point or am playing or sideboarding poorly.
- Mistakes hurt a lot, even when it does forgive you.
The future.
- Aven Mindcensors seem un-necessary. I think fitting in 2 Serra Avengers for them is a good idea, and trying to slot a third is good. I don't want to lose the Fiend Hunter.
Anyway, that's it for now.
Avenger is nuts. Add 3 and your delver matchup becomes easy.
Mindcensor is weak, mostly because he costs 1 mana too many. And mulling comes with the deck; part of it comes with time, part of it is evaluating hands and making a logical leap. Something like:
Plains, SFM, Mom, StP, Thalia
Looks risky, but at 5 is worth the keep, since any land off the top puts you in business.
And if you love Hunter, try Mangara: he's slower, more vulnerable, etc. but also serves as a trump card vs any fair match and S&T combo. The lock is also surprisingly easy to get online.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Yeah, I didn't have Avengers, so I just took an older list. I definitely like the Mirran Crusaders, but other than swapping out the 2 Mindcensors for 2 Avengers... I don't know whether to move a Revoker to the SB, or just cut a Crusader. Maybe cutting a Crusader is best... 2 are still good as a mise.
It wasn't mulliganning bad hands as much as unplayable hands. I guess it comes with the territory since Jund (for example) has 9 fetchlands and 11 colored mana producing lands, whereas this has 10 Plains and 3 Karakas, 1 Cavern and 1 Canopy. But still not that bad. I even kept Waste/Port with Vial hands, some panned out, some did not.
Seeing a Plains in my opening hand was a snap-keep almost every game, including testing games.
I had 2 Mangara in the sideboard, I forgot about those. Yeah, they are pretty sweet in a lot of matchups.
In general, I am always loathing changing the maindeck from something MUCH better players have already developed. This is not a deck that can really change heavily based upon different metagames. Even the sideboard, not having any Cataclysms required moving some stuff around. Nothing I could do about mulligans however I am certain the deck will play a lot smoother once I get better with it.
In truth, this deck has several iterations and should be changed based on meta-since so much of it's strategy is about creating a hostile environment for your opposition.
For example, my meta has many blade decks and a smattering of random stuff, so I am playing Mangara and Avenger over Mindcensor and Crusader (though I will still keep a singleton crusader in the main). In my old meta, however, combo and goyfs ran amok and I would probably be playing Enevoldsen's 60.
As far as mulls go, Aether Vial is also almost always a snap keep unless it has only a wasteland as a mana source (and speaking of vial, knowing when to tick it up from 2 to 3 is another skill to master with the deck as well). Last week I played vs BURG tempo and kept a hand with triple port, waste and two vials--and went on to win.
EDIT: Also, never cut Revoker. I'm personally a huge fan of the card and wrote a nice guide on the Salvation thread (which is somehow more active than this one) on how to use him based on what deck you are facing. I am willing to go as far as to say that there is an inviolable core to this deck, along the lines of:
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 sfm
4 Vial
4 StP
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I'm sorry to ask for a ton of advice on a short notice. I took a half year or so break from M:tG (with the exception of pre-releases), however, I decided to sign up for a 120 man Legacy tournament. Only now did I realize just how much the format has probably changed since I last played. Could someone give me the keynotes of how my old build is out of date now?
Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains
Creatures: 26
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Aven Mindcensor
Spells: 12
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant (this one should be a 4th Thalia or a Batterskull.)
Sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Rest in Peace
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Serenity
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Stony Silence
1x Aven Mindcensor
I just started playing Legacy after a long while spent intimidating myself out of it what with the price barrier and all, but given D&T's recent showings and just how much it suits my personality and playstyle, I decided to make the leap, sell off most of my standard collection, and get into this wonderful format I've been on the sidelines of for a while. I can see the deck has a steep learning curve, especially since most games I played were mine to lose. But can anyone give me the cliff notes? I don't expect to learn to play the deck overnight, but any advice you can give a new player would be much appreciated. One thing I've been wondering is if Runed Halo in the sideboard is too narrow? It deals with TNN but it doesn't seem to deal with much else, unfortunately.
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