[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

I do not see how you can lose from that situation. With no coloured mana, a Ranger in play and a Nettle I would just say he is gone. You have no reason not to tap for a basic. You can win just fine on the two lands you would have after you play the other fetch. I would try and get him to waste my land so I could bounce it and have him waste it in response. Taking out both his lands with minimal cost to myself (If he is a fool). The reason I would try and do this is in case he is holding Pyrokinesis I would like him totally off lands if he is foolish enough to try and kill my lands I would have all the time I need to rearm.

To that end I would run out the Symbiote and then the Druid. You can then do some bounce and tap shenanigans for all the mana you need. You can use the last fetch to grab Dryad and its game.

[Water_Wizard]

@spetznaz

From your opponent's keep, it's clear that he kept one or more of the following: Perish, E. Plague, Pyrokenisis. He obviously doesn't have Chalice, or he would have played it.

Perish - you don't want to play into a blow-out and it kills Progenitus.
E. Plague - Nettle, Progren, Wirewood, Arbor, and Craterhoof all survive - not terribly scary
Pyrokenisis - Given your opponent's play, I would guess that he is holding 1 or more Pyrokenisis for maximum value.

Given your opening hand (fetch, fetch, fetch, Nettle Sentinel, Natural Order, Quirion Ranger, and Viridian Shaman), I agree with your turn one of fetch->forest, Nettle. (fetch, fetch, NO, QR, VS, HD remain)

Turn 2: (fetch, fetch, NO, QR, VS, HD, WS) Play fetch, attack, I would be inclined to play the Wirewood here, as you can bounce Nettle if he tries Pyrokensis or Perish. (fetch, NO, QR, VS, HD) Because you haven't used your 2nd land, he likely realizes that you are up to something and are either going to fetch a Dryad Arbor or are holding back from a blow-out.

Turn 3: he has either missed his black source and/or is still holding Pyrokenisis for maximum value. I would attack with both creatures (he's at 15), drop fetch, and play the Visionary that you've just drawn, leaving a fetch open. You've got a commanding board state at this point. Your hand is (NO, QR, VS, HD, and the card that you've just drawn from Visionary). At this point, I would just ride it out, swinging for 4 each turn. I wouldn't bounce Visionary unless it was in response to removal.

I would be hesitant to cast NO for Craterhoof, because if he casts Pyrokenisis in response, you aren't getting much bang for your buck.

[spetznaz]

I would try and get him to waste my land so I could bounce it and have him waste it in response.

If I fetch I nonbacic my opponent can try and waste it, I bounce as a part of the cost so there is no opportunity to get both wastelands. I could however have fetched a Dryad Arbor to try and bait out a Pyrokinesis in his turn 3 end step, or see if he cracks a wasteland to make me bounce. If I instead had played Symbiote turn 2, this play would have been better. He is either bluffing not having the third land to blow me out with Plague/Perish, does infact not have the third land or is trying to blow me out with a Pyrokinesis.

@Water_Wizard

Interesting view on the Symbiote as a turn 2 play. I didn't play it because I want to protect my elves later in the game. I have 7 outs (11 if you count Natural Order) to get the Visionary/Symbiote engine going. Even if I only get two cards out of it, I think I am inclined to keep the Symbiote in my hand. My options turn two then is either to play out my hand (blowout if he has any sideboard removal), play the Heritage Druid (probably something I might need if I draw into Glimpse or goes for a turn 3 Natural Order, or play the Ranger. I played the ranger because I want my opponent to kill it more than any other card I could have played that turn.

I played a turn 3 Heritage Druid, Natural Order into Progenitus, using my third fetch to get a sacrificial Dryad Arbor. I didn't think my opponent would bluff not having a third land, so he had to draw into a black source that is able to cast Perish, goblins doesn't play more than 8 so the probability he draws one in his next two draw steps are quite low. If he plays 8 (6 fetch and 2 badlands) then he has 8/52 + 8/51 = about 30% chance to draw into an answer. Even if he manages to do so I have Visionary/Symbiote to rebuild and draw into either more elves to win trough beat-down, or one of 10 remaining business spells. I still am not convinced I made the correct play, but in my mind I didn't do the worst play either. My opponent didn't draw a land and showed me a hand of 5 goblins, Perish and Engineered Plague.

[yaWgnorW]

Right now I'm running Needle, however it seems in our 15 its either Needle or Meekstone. I'm actually testing 3 needles right now on MTGO (up one from the two I was running for weeks before). It seems clunky but its been really effective, and is always serving its purpose. There is a surprising amount of relevant MUs needle hits. Then again, the same goes for Meekstone.

I'd love Meekstone to help with some of our bad MUs, but at the same time Needle helps in many of the same (in different ways) and in other MUs. I am comfortable running 3 Abrupt Decay and 6 Discard in the board, and not really looking at dropping them further. That leaves Ooze, NO, Prog.

It should be pointed out that you might opt for a 2 Decay, 1 Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage/Viridian Shaman split instead of the 3 Decay. Also, I see 4 Discard + 2 Thorn of Amethyst as roughly the same.

But yeah. At least it's:
- 4 Discard
- 2 Decay
- 1 Prog
- 1 NO
and most of us run:
- 1 ScOoze

That leaves about 6 cards up for debate, including highly debated cards like Ruric Thar, Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle, Meekstone, Mindbreak Trap and Thorn of Amethyst. Actually, you could throw one of each in and see how that goes :P. Actually, throw the Thar maindeck and add a Worldspine Wurm. Might as well cut a Heritage Druid for an Ezuri as well maindeck and you sort of have the ultimate Elves! deck :P.

I don't care for running Thorn of Amyethst. I agree its good, just don't see the need for it. I also do not care for Gaddock Teeg. Just personally I'd rather be doing something else then casting it (Thorn), and turn 2 as the earliest castable time just seems like it would hurt us more.

On Mindbreak Trap, I was on that kick as well. It just seemed like every deck that I could use it against (the good players) would discard it before going off. Pithing Needle is what I took in place of it, as a cheap option that doesn't slow down what I want to do on the board as much as say...Thorn.

Also, I run both Viridian Shaman and Ruric Thar main anyway, but I've been contemplating switching him for Ooze in my board due to my meta. If I add something else to the side it will likely be Meekstone. It also makes sense with my meta. I could see cutting 1 Decay for it as its accomplishing a lot of the same thing vs some decks, but thats still hard for me. I've been on 3 decay for a while.
And even though Heritiage Druid is one of our weaker elves, I doubt I'd cut it for Ezuri. I need Heritage more than I need Ezuri.

[Kayradis]

The guys at work are all looking at me playing the match.
Jeez.
Alright. This is how I see it

Cracck Fetch -> Forest; Tap Forest, Play Druid,
Tap NS,QR,HD for GGG, Play Visionary (G remaining), Draw 1, untap NS,
Play Wirewood (NADA remaining), Use Quirion(untaps itself),
Tap NS,QR,EV for GGG, Tap forest for G (GGGG in pool)
Use Symbiote Ability (Bounce Visionary/Untap Quirion)
Cast NO (sac heritage Druid)
9+6+5 = 21 Damage

[Avatar of Light]

The guys at work are all looking at me playing the match.
Jeez.
Alright. This is how I see it

1) Cracck Fetch -> Forest; Tap Forest, Play Druid,
2) Tap NS,QR,HD for GGG, Play Visionary (G remaining), Draw 1, untap NS,
3) Play Wirewood (NADA remaining), Use Quirion(untaps itself),
4) Tap NS,QR,EV for GGG, Tap forest for G (GGGG in pool)
5) Use Symbiote Ability (Bounce Visionary/Untap Quirion)
6) Cast NO (sac heritage Druid)
9+6+5 = 20 Damage

If you swap 5) and 6), you get 23 (10+7+6) damage instead.

[nudon]

@spetznaz: I would have played it out this way:
t1: nettle sentinel
t2: symbiote, quirion ranger
t3: heritage druid, NO, attack for 6+5+5+9=25.

Symbiote protects your elves while quirion ranger sets up t3 win. If they play pyrokinesis, the most they can get is 2 creatures. In this instance, it's still a 2 for 2 trade. E-plague is actually easy to play around as stated by many others in the thread. Perish seems possible but it's unlikely he's sandbagging his badlands. You can technically go off on turn two but I personally wouldn't as you're asking to play right into pyrokinesis. If you somehow know the coast is clear:

t2: HD, QR, tap for GGG, symbiote (GG, untap NS), bounce HR (untap QR), play druid (G), tap for GGGG, NO (pitch HD), attack for 6+9=15.

[andrebonotto]

(...)
Tap NS,QR,HD for GGG, Play Visionary (G remaining), Draw 1, untap NS,
(...)

Just to mention... One little "tip" that I find particularly usefull when I play the deck is to always resolve my NS's untapping ability first, and only then resolve my card draws.

This is because of, technically, one is not allowed to untap his Sentinel after drawing from a Visionary (as happened in your example), since:

1. NS triggers on the green spell (in this case, EV) being cast;
2. Whereas, EV triggers on itself entering the battlefield;
3. So, when one draws from a Visionary, one has already missed his NS's optional untapping trigger.


Although this may be irrelevant in most "informal" games, and on a (even "formal"/competitive) Glimpse chain (since here both cards triggers on the green creatures being cast, and in this situation one can order his triggers anyway he wants), I find that this "little tip" helps me to create an usefull "automatism" on my moves, that can prevents me from potentially losing my NS's untapping if I ever mis-shortcut my EV/NS triggers, when playing in a competitive REL tournament against a "nitpicky" opponent.

A very corner-case scenario, I know. But still, better be cautious, I think. ;)


Sincerely,

- André



P.S.: NS = Nettle Sentinel / EV = Elvish Visionary

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

What do we see as our toughest match-ups these days? Clearly, UWR and Miracles are right up at the top of the list. Storm, Dredge and Reanimator can't be far behind. Of course all meta-games are different. But when we think about the decks that either have our number (like UWR and Miracles) or quickly and immediately end the game (like Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator), what else should we be thinking about?

Maybe, put another way: how would you rank our worst match-ups?

[Julian23]

Worst matchups, from Elven holocaust (left) to slightly unfavored (right):


<==Miracles==============UWr Delver===Reanimator===RUG/Belcher/Sneak Show==TES===Dredge====ANT====>

[yaWgnorW]

Worst matchups, from Elven holocaust (left) to slightly unfavored (right):


<==Miracles==============UWr Delver===Reanimator===RUG/Belcher/Sneak Show==TES===Dredge====ANT====>

I must agree with that, although I may have changed around some of the middle ones. Online I've been working on the UWr MU as much as possible, Abrupt Decay and Pithing Needle have really helped there. Its still miserable of course.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm playing a couple Sylvan Library specifically aimed at the UWr Delver mu. They can handle creatures like it's nobody's business, but enchantments aren't their specialty. And if they want an answer to Library, they have to bring in some crap like Wear//Tear, which is simply terrible against 98% of our deck. Or they must burn a counterspell, opening or at least easing the way for Glimpse and NO. The same goes for Miracles.

[Eternal]

I'm playing a couple Sylvan Library specifically aimed at the UWr Delver mu. They can handle creatures like it's nobody's business, but enchantments aren't their specialty. And if they want an answer to Library, they have to bring in some crap like Wear//Tear, which is simply terrible against 98% of our deck. Or they must burn a counterspell, opening or at least easing the way for Glimpse and NO. The same goes for Miracles.

I've never wanted to pay 4 life versus any tempo red deck. UWr run 4 delver and 4 bolt : from there i think sylvan is not really a good choice in this mu. However i like the slot versus esper for example.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I've never wanted to pay 4 life versus any tempo red deck. UWr run 4 delver and 4 bolt : from there i think sylvan is not really a good choice in this mu. However i like the slot versus esper for example.

It's not as simple as this for a few reasons. The first main reason is that Elves requires a high density of cards before it can win. And when you've been exhausted of creatures as UWr typically accomplishes, you need a quick flurry of draws to get you back into a game that you will lose otherwise. Paying 8 life is a lot, but it can be used as a resource even against Bolt decks. Don't walk yourself into a loss obviously.

You don't have to pay the life. What's more important than card advantage in legacy? Card selection - especially to a deck playing about a dozen noncreature spells. If you draw one-drop elves for three turns in a row, you'll lose that game. Between 9-10 fetches, you find more spells that are relevant in this mu than without the card. And that's my game plan against decks like UWr or RUG - overwhelm their counterspells with our powerful noncreature spells.

Adding Library isn't the be-all solution to the mu, but it's pretty universally good and commands a game if left alone. Only against combo do I really side it out. You need to test it before you kick the idea.

[yaWgnorW]

I'm playing a couple Sylvan Library specifically aimed at the UWr Delver mu. They can handle creatures like it's nobody's business, but enchantments aren't their specialty. And if they want an answer to Library, they have to bring in some crap like Wear//Tear, which is simply terrible against 98% of our deck. Or they must burn a counterspell, opening or at least easing the way for Glimpse and NO. The same goes for Miracles.

It's not as simple as this for a few reasons. The first main reason is that Elves requires a high density of cards before it can win. And when you've been exhausted of creatures as UWr typically accomplishes, you need a quick flurry of draws to get you back into a game that you will lose otherwise. Paying 8 life is a lot, but it can be used as a resource even against Bolt decks. Don't walk yourself into a loss obviously.

You don't have to pay the life. What's more important than card advantage in legacy? Card selection - especially to a deck playing about a dozen noncreature spells. If you draw one-drop elves for three turns in a row, you'll lose that game. Between 9-10 fetches, you find more spells that are relevant in this mu than without the card. And that's my game plan against decks like UWr or RUG - overwhelm their counterspells with our powerful noncreature spells.

Adding Library isn't the be-all solution to the mu, but it's pretty universally good and commands a game if left alone. Only against combo do I really side it out. You need to test it before you kick the idea.

I'm not crazy about cards that are specific to one MU. I'm also not so crazy about cards that can slow us down. Library is a turn 2 play that a lot of the time we may have to wait to turn 3 for fear of daze and/or pierce. I know it eats a counter, but we just ate a turn eating a counter that they can brainstorm/ponder up in no time. If you ask me, Meekstone/Pithing Needle is a better option when comparing permanents. The cost is cheaper. Stone as we've discussed stops Delver, TNN in this MU. Needle targets Jitte/Grim Lavamancer/SFM/Batterskull (once token is gone) in this MU. Both cards have the potential to eat counters, especially if you time your spells correctly, but won't put you as back as library would; as furthermore you have an instant effect from those cards vs library. I think Wirewood + Visonary offer enough potential card advantage versus the rotating of library and possibly playing 4 life vs a deck with unblockables for a card that could just end up being countered anyway.

[lavafrogg]

Elves in the finals of scg Oakland. Playing esper stoneblade with EE Supreme Verdict main and zealous sideboard.... Good luck!

[Imperial]

Elves in the finals of scg Oakland. Playing esper stoneblade with EE Supreme Verdict main and zealous sideboard.... Good luck!

Well playing on both of their parts. Nice tournament with a diverse top 8 is always good.

[venice]

I had a great run yesterday with our beloved Elves at my local 40+ ppl Legacy tournament, going 6-0 undefeated!

My MatchUps were:

R1: TES 2-0
R2: Omnishow 2-1
R3: Dredge 2-0
R4: BW Deadguy 2-0
R5: Reanimator 2-1
R6: UR Burn (U was only for Delver) 2-0

My list:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Mystic
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Crop Rotation
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation

I made some minor adjustments to the list the week before the tournament. Mainly that was adding Ooze and Natural Order #4 to the maindeck to have a better game 1 against unfair decks like Storm, Dredge and Reanimator, which I see a lot of in our local meta. Thus I also switched Cradle #4 for 1 Crop Rotation, adding a second copy to the SB alongside Karakas and Bojuka Bog. Those changes really payed off yesterday, especially against Reanimator. I am really happy with that configuration right now. The only thing I wanted in a few situations was the 2nd Dryad Arbor, which got cut for NO#4.



Edit: The Duress in the SB would normally be Thoughtseize #2. Unfortunately my 2nd foil copy didn't arrive in time, so the Duress had to fill the gap since I REALLY dont want to play any non foil card in an otherwise fully pimped deck. ;P

[Havoc]

Creatures
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Lands
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
2 Thoughtseize
1 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle

This is my current list. Played last weekend and went 2-2. Loses were to manaless dredge and U/W/R. At the time I was running progenitus main but have since moved him to the sideboard as he is very situational. My issue seems to be that I can always produce 6-7 mana but don’t have a bomb I can hardcast or green sun for. Regal force is ok but if they're just going to verdict anyway seems kind of weak. Any thoughts

[Shagstaman]

Worst matchups, from Elven holocaust (left) to slightly unfavored (right):


<==Miracles==============UWr Delver===Reanimator===RUG/Belcher/Sneak Show==TES===Dredge====ANT====>

seems like esper stoneblade should be on that list. I've always had a rough matchup with them, and I've seen them slaughter elves on camera a few too many times (scg opens and invis)... the combination of pinpoint disruption (fow and swords), stoneforge etc, and massive amount of sb hate (ee, ep, zealous, perish, and verdict to name a few) seems like too much to handle at times. We used to be able to grind them out, but now they have TNN to put the game away quickly.

last night's scg open finals was an example of one such slaughter.. (altho I think elves sideboarded wrong, aren't you supposed to bring in cabal therapy or thoughtseize vs esper??)

thoughts?

(I've beaten miracles more than esper lol)