[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[pfiremc13]

Does no one run Thrun as a way to get at a Jace? In Thune fit you could run Sigarda. Obviously it doesn't KILL Jace. But you know, it kills Jace.

I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.

For those of you wondering about the rector version here's my updated list. I've been on rector for over a year now and the deck has served me well. I don't quite understand what the thrill about thune combo is, I simply think it adds too many individually dead cards to the deck.

If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

[Arianrhod]

1) Well, having a tooth & nail in your opening is like a mull to 6. Nothing different than scape.
2) If I had to pay 9 in Legacy I wish my spell to be a end-gaming one.
3) Your combo also die to wasteland, just in a different manner, except if you plan to go for at least 9(7) basics...

Don't take me wrong. I did play Tooth & Nail years ago. I like the card but to make it viable in Legacy and in Nic Fit is just another story.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting that we all rush out and buy a set of Tooth and Nails. It's mostly just a discussion point. Nic Fit as an archetype is capable of virtually anything, and it's always good to have a robust debate.

That said, allow me to continue to play devil's advocate...

1) False. There are very, very few instances where I consider any card to be an auto-mull in my opening hand. If I'm playing a Kiki-jiki to Tooth for in a GBW deck with 0 red sources, then yes, that counts. If I open a Scapeshift in my 7 with Scapewish, I'm actually usually pretty happy about it -- it means I don't need to dig for the win. I already have it -- it's just a matter of getting to it and resolving it safely. While it doesn't do anything by itself, just the knowledge that I have it allows me to play differently -- I can use my Wishes to either get protection (Thoughtseize) or answers for various problematic board states to stall out until Scape comes online. And so forth. Tooth, I think, is the same way. I wouldn't really care if I opened one in my 7 because then I wouldn't have to go looking for it later, and I could focus on just ramping / controlling the game to that point.

2) This I agree with. That being said, all I'm suggesting here is that if the cogs get screwed up and we HAVE to Tooth for JUST a Titan + a 5-drop, well oh well. I am 100% in favor of the idea that if Tooth resolves, you should win immediately. A lot of the more enginey things that Tooth can do need to be dismissed for this reason -- like Ooze + Corpse Conn is cute, but highly unlikely to win the game on the spot unless you have a gajillion life and you go get Griselbrand....but then that requires you to run a Griselbrand, which is in itself weak to graveyard hate.

It's also the problem with Iona + Servant -- if you're dead on board, it doesn't win you the game. Ironically, ThuneFeeder might be one of the best combos, here -- if you're dead on board when you Tooth for ThuneFeeder, you're not going to be dead on board anymore, even if your entire board gets annihilated or some such.

3) Ehhhhhhh. I usually run between 7 and 8 basics in Nic Fit. While Wasteland is still annoying, I don't consider it a deal-breaker. We'll get to that much mana. Hell, I've been able to hardcast Emrakul a few times. Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribes would help with this, too. You aren't realistically going much further than Scape does -- one more land drop is irrelevant in decks with this much stable mana.

I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.



If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

Vouch for Thune and Feeder being good on their own. I do think that Baneslayer is still better when going solo, but Feeder can be unexpectedly amazing.

Thrun gets chumped for days, and doesn't get around a blocking True-Name. He's okay for like GB versions, and GBR Punishing because they usually run Kessig Wolf Run...but outside of those two instances, I wouldn't touch Thrun. Waste of a slot.

Carpet helps with Jace, because it helps you get your stuff deployed before he comes down, ensuring that when he does, he's dead immediately. That said, even with Carpets in my list I've sometimes still randomly lost to Jace. At least Jace's popularity is declining in the metagame at the moment. I keep hoping we'll get an Acidic Slime variant that can nuke planeswalkers. It's an obvious print, and it's one of those things that would immediately give Nic Fit as an archetype a huge power spike.

[pfiremc13]

I have no idea what to cut from my side though.

This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

[Fizzeler]

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

[Arianrhod]

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

[Ralf]

Emrakul + hasty beast could be an end-gaming shot.

Anyway, I'll put these considerations aside. If someone wants to give this idea a shot, I'll enjoy reading results about it.

Back to regular Nic Fit.

So, I'm currently testing (aside my Nic Fit Planeswalker build) some new tweaks to my scape list:

Here you go:

1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Taiga
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shattergang Brothers
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

As already posted, S&T is back in da YARD (Sneak, omni)... What should I do. And don't tell me to drop Nic Fit...
Cards in bold are my recent changes (still testing).

1) Shattergang is maybe too cute and far too slow. But I kinda love the fact that it can answer both Omni/Sneak as you can kill Emmy, Sneak & Omni recurring a pernicious in game 1 (and obvisouly a carpet in game 2). It can also profit the second sensei you let on top of your library !!!

2) Karakas. As a 1-of, it is not what I would call "OUTSTANDING" but as long as I don't lose games because of it (and yet to happen), If only I could take at least a game 1 against S&T with it (or reanimator), I will be happy.

3) Slaughter has been removed from MD. In TS ! SG is a game ending spell against some combo MU but it has been so DEAD vs a lot of fair decks and against combo, IT HAS TO COME ON TIME (which barely happened). Multiple times I wish I had a cheaper disruption in hand...
But, I consider adding a 1-of, Liliana over the third TS MD (or might be 2).
Amusingly, this has freed up a slot in SB -> 4th REB but this could become some kind of grave.hate

Any ideas will, as usual, be more than welcomed.

[Fizzeler]

I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

I have not tested them together, they are both better in different situations, Whip is great when you have no creatures in play and a pod active. As I said the lifelink is huge vs other midrange decks and tempo I raced 3 flipped delvers with a Whip

I'll move up to 8 then with so many lategame sinks I felt I wanted the extra land, I may do Swamp over Plains because of Titan and Whip, although I can see Grave Titan becoming Thune

[Megadeus]

Regarding Tooth and Nail, you could run like a BUG version with like Plasm Capture ( http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardd...product=446814 ) to help ramp up to 9 mana. I thought about making a deck like that in modern. Seems hilarious if nothing else.

What about a BUG pod deck that played like Painters Servant and Trinket mage to search for Grindstone?

[GtF]

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

[Megadeus]

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

Loam? Helps to hit land drops. Sucks that you may end up milling your good spells though. I mean you can always EWtiness back a Valakut.

Also if you are running Tooth and Nail, you could always run Emrakul so even if they discard it it just shuffles back in

[Fizzeler]

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

[GtF]

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

[Fizzeler]

Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

What about Bow in Scapewish though? Admittedly I have not played Scapewish so no gauge on whether it is good in that build and something like Restore could solve the wasteland issue better than it.

It does on the surface I agree, but factoring in things like GSZ and Pod itself kinda makes me think twice

Also worth noting Nightmare does not recur non creatures and has to be recast continuously. Nothing against recurring nightmare just testing many different cards for the best fit in the list

[Megadeus]

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

[pfiremc13]

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

That's actually really funny.

Bow definitely requires testing to see where exactly the abilities are good. It looks ok to me, if not overly impressive.

This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

Eugh I think teeg is too useful against like miracles and stuff to cut from the main

So my change will be -1 canonist +1 fetters.

[strom]

While browsing the list of zenitable multicolored creatures I found this one:

Ghave, Guru of Spores

It might find a place in GBw-Builds.
Ghave is a bit mana-intensive but hey - we use Explorers.
Ghave offers some nice combat tricks. You can use the tokens to block and then sacrifice them back to pump Ghave. Basically you can fog four creatures each turn or use the tokens to get at an opposing walker. Ghave also works well with Spikefeeder.
On the other hand there are probably more powerful creatures like Sigarda in the 5cc-slot.
What do you think?

[Myelectronicdays]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

[jbone2016]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

I think landing a tombstalker is important. Deeding for 7 is difficult. Having a deathrite tends to mess with therapy at times. (granted we can play around it if we are careful). I will say Lily is a pain to deal with, if we don't have decay.

[Arianrhod]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

Yeah, your best bet is to have Stifle at the ready for Veteran Explorer and for Pernicious Deed. Nothing else is really worth stifling in the matchup from your perspective, unless it's something really devastating (like a Thragtusk trigger the turn before you kill him). Even then you can still just lose to Carpet of Flowers out of the side, but it's your best bet. Nic Fit is probably one of your worst matchups, so don't feel bad about struggling with it -- and you can also take solace in the fact that it's not a commonly played deck.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Quick question: how often do the various combo decks win turn 1 on the play? Thinking of swapping out my Force of Wills for Thoughtseizes in the side for consistency purposes, but if that Turn 1 Win % is too great, then I'll have to reconsider including FoW.