Uhuuuuuuuuu... That's devilstyle, very hot. You assure your mana base, do the wasteland-lock and chuck the crap away into grave for further brainstorming. I Like.Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
So far 2 Pyros are enough for me with TNN in the meta. You still have Dazes/FoWs and Probe for better rating.
Yes, people like this. Although it wokrs better in UGx Intuition-Loam, it may still pretty powerful in RUG, too.
Has anyone tested the SB Price of Progress in this meta? Seems to be quite good if the number of midrange decks increase in the coming months.
There's a trouble with timing. We're not Burn that may play PoP nearly anytime, but we need to Daze our Islands or not play them at all, etc. Ok, against decks that have no clock, we may easily swallow four to six dmg, but it is still a bit dangerous. Moreover I'm not sure how it goes with our Wasteland plan. You want to cut the JUND/JUNK/Rock/etc. from mana and apply pressure in the meantime before they stabilize and get from our "soft lock". Early PoP doesn't help you in any way and in fact it's a dead card.
Contrary to Burn, whose plan is to... welll, to simply burn, and whose pilots do not touch the opponents' manabase (ok, sans Moon) and may easily play turn-three PoP FTW, our plan is different and we win not on the stack (yes, I know, kinda oversimplification when discussing blue.dec, but you get my point), like Burn does in imma-slow-combo fashion; we win in the red zone. This means we need to have clear coast for our threats to deal the initial ten+ dmg (or even finish the opponent completely with creatures), and this open road is buldozered by Stifling their fetch, Wasting their dual, Bolting their DRS, Dazing their Hymn, Snaring their Goyf, Piercing their Liliana and FoWing their KotR. There's no place for PoP in this plan/sequence and every opening seven where you stare at PoP, is a de facto mulligan.
Moreover, to reliably kill with it, I fear that you need at least two of them (to be sure you get one) or maybe even three (to be sure you get enough of them). This might be troublesome not only because of the self-inflicted dmg alone, but also because of opposing Punishing Fire/GotBW engine, Goyfs and/or Stalkers, BSkulls, etc.; in short: anything that deals damage to you either reliably or in big chunks or both. Not to mention that the big amounts of narrow cards might complicate your sbing, esp. considering the above paragraph about our gameplan and the fact that PoP doesn't support it at all.
I'd be very interested in your test results, though, because I see the great potential for great damage, so PoP can't be easily dismissed. My point is that to really analyze the card one should really analyze it - yeah, someties I like to use the politicians' slang - and not to overlook some o its downsides. But if you really think that the swinging effect of PoP is what the deck needs once it gets past the point of winning in certain matchups, don't hesitate to try it! I already thought about the card (not because I'm such a genius, but I've seen it in some list), yet considering how it directly interferes with our main gameplan (or better said, how our gameplan directly interferes with the card), I never decided to use it in fear of bad/mediocre results.
Surprise me, please!
BDP
I'm not sure about my SB for the next turney. Atm it looks like this
: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Izzet Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
I'm thinking about adding 2 needles but for what? Cutting the extractions?
Maybe for charm? Why do you run it in the sb? I mean I play one main,too , but that's because it is flexible. Postboard there are better cards I think
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This. If I'd ever play Charm (which is quite possible, it's a good card), I won't be having it in sb, it's a maindeck spell. But even if you cut it, you'd have just one slot for Needle. Unless you hack into the gy hate, you can't get any other slots. But if your meta warrants the grave hate, then I wouldn't recommend that, esp. as both Cage (GSZ/NO/CT/Icho/Narcomoeba/DReturn/Reanimate/Entomb) and Extraction (CT/Icho/Narcomoeba/DReturn/Reanimate/IT/Doomsday) are pretty versatile.
Sent from my bed fighting the flu.
I'll cut the charm and one extraction for the needles I think.
So I have come back to RUG after some experimentation playing other decks. I have been pretty happy with the results. I have gone 3-1 both local tournaments in the past two weeks. This week I played against Pox (2-0), Shardless BUG (0-2), Tin Fins (2-1), and RUG (2-1). I played a few extra games with my Shardless opponent and out of 4 games we each took 2. I think the hands that I kept during the actual tournament were a little slow and as such allowed him to establish a board which stopped me from clocking him. Overall I have been really happy with the deck. I would like to say that while many people are jumping ship from RUG it remains a solid deck with a great clock and disruptive elements for just about any match up you can face. A lot of playing this deck comes down to knowing what you need in a given match up.
Edit: As for the current discussion of Izzet Charm, I have run it in both the main and sideboard. I am of the opinion that there are just better cards for either slot. Figuring out what belongs in your maindeck flex slots and the composition of your sideboard is largely a metagame issue that requires playing and tweaking.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Shardless BUG is sometimes pretty hard to defeat, they circumvent our manadenial with DRS, have lots of cheap CA, quite some removal, they attack our hand. Fortunately no one plays it in our lgs.
Izzet Charm seems good, it does two relevant things and one quite reasonable. Otoh, the cmc2 is what kills it for me.
I would say all 3 modes are relevant, there are times in the late game where i would even loot, but i wouldn't pay 2 for any of the effects. While i see the upside of flexibility, none of the modes are particularly amazing, in my mind. I may just already have the primary uses fulfilled though by running 3 pierce and 2 forked bolt in my list.
I once ran 2 charms but they felt to clunky, Cmc of 2 isnt that great I agree. But having one is, for me at least, great, because when I'm in topdeck mode I always find the wrong card: burn if I need to counter or vice versa. So as long as I have space in my board I will run it, because I was more often than not glad to have it.
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I think Charm is too expensive for this deck. The card I like the least is Tarmogoyf, the CMC2 is more problematic than it may look. Even though It can't compare to Goyf as it's an instant, I wouldn't add more 2-drops, I have even cut my Fire // Ice to fit a second Forked Bolt (Meta choice, too many DRS/Mom's)
Once I saw a list wunning Cephalid Coliseum as land 19. It seemed like a great idea, I sometimes miss one more land that taps for mana and it's not a dead drawn most of the time. Has anyone tried it with success?
Edit: Considerong forled bolt is used 90% of the time on turn one (Mom, DRS, Hierarch...) and in the late game Chin Lighting is better (not against red decks) which of those would you run? Thanks
Last edited by BVB09; 12-13-2013 at 08:32 AM.
I'd play Colliseum in Vexing Thresh. Here it's a Wastelandable land that pings you, its effect might be used only once. What's nice that it dodges Choke and the draw effect is pretty powerful, unless you are in top deck mode.
i like the flexibility of Forked Bolt over Chain Lightning's increased dmg. Also, red decks are pretty usual.
I hadn't heard of that deck, could you share a list?
Thanks :)
That's true about Chain, they being able to kill my delver for free doesnt seem to deserve the extra damage...
It's the RUG with LftL, Vexing Sphinx and Punishing Burnwillows that some dude played not long ago.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...vexing-sphinx/
I'd love to build it once I lay my hands on last two Groves.
Thanks! It looks interesting :) I thought it was Threshold with Vexing Devil or even Vexing Susher, but I didn't remember the good old Vexing Sphinx
Yep, Sphinx kinda lost its fame after TNN was printed.Thanks! It looks interesting :) I thought it was Threshold with Vexing Devil or even Vexing Susher, but I didn't remember the good old Vexing Sphinx
It's very different build, though, but still lovely.
Anyone of you imagined/wanted/tried more burn, especially for "instant speed" and "into face"? With instant speed you can hold up your mana till EOT or till a really crucial spell shows up a turn and still decide what you want to do in the end.
E.g. reaching that threshold spontaneously for mongoose. Having more instant burn for suprisingly hitting that residual damage in for gg. Having more instant answers for annoying creature showups in g1. double-bolting that goyf into grave in g1, and so on.
4 Lightning Bolt ist self-explanatory. I furthermore think of continuing more cc1 "instant answers" like 3-4 "Tarfires" or "Shocks".
You don't always have the desired 2 for 1 effect with Forked Bolt. In such a case like against DRS or SM sorcery speed is disadvantage. And for myself "Chain Lightning" or "Dismember" also suck for conceptional reasons.
There are a lot of matchups where Tarfire shines for us (Combo, UWR, Esper-/Deathblade, Tribal, DnT, Maverick, MUD, Affinity, blabla). If we face opposing goyfs it's just luck who lands the first or following goyfs and benefits from Tarfire. For those who are skeptic there's always Shock left; or Submerge in 2nd or 3rd game.
Those were my first thoughts in the last days. Am I to blindly this way? Thanks for your comments.
Forked Bolt is good for two reasons: the flexibility of split damage (mostly for MoR and Thalia, but also two Elves at one shot or Lackey plus whatever-the-unlucky-unLackey-1/1-Gobbo, Confidant and Delver, etc.); it also feeds our gy with sorcery, which honestly shouldn't be our main concern, but sometimes we are against decks that don't play any or may Grimly Lavamant them out. Theoretically this should be outweighed by Tarfire's secondary type, and I guess that more often than not it would be, as sorceries are far, far more common spells than tribals. So basically you switch versatility of split dmg (not that crucial after the decline of "random x/1" decks) and the sorcery Goyfs fodder, for the versatility of instant and a "Goyf fodder - tribal". I'm not sure what is better, but once again, I hardly ever have an urge for EOT burning anything, unless we're talking about three specific situations: I need to finish their attacker whom I chumped or Goyf-walled, I wish to kill DRS/SFM/Bob/Clique (that one especially!) and simultaneously I don't (have a time to) fear their countermagic, or I just burn them because matchup: ANT, Tress, etc.
Sorcery speed of FB is not that hurtful, considering we burn the important dudes (DRS) on sight (even on draw we simply many times can't wait) and often on our turn or better said: when our lands are untapped. You won't have the luxury to play around Dazes on opponents' turns and sometimes the one more card (be it counter in case they'd try to save their creature, or even something that basic like non-basic to fuel the burn), might be the reason to play the removal on our minphase. Yes, this all is contradictory, so I'll try to put it more reasonably:
- either you're in situation when you need to burn the DRS/Grim/Bob asap, which often means that it doesn't make any difference if it's instant or what (ok, unless that creature has haste) - you just tap your lands the moment you got them in play and untapped. Say it's your turn1 on draw, you just fetch-and-burn the ugly elf! There's no gain in the instanteous nature of Tarfire... or any other Shock.
- or you're in a situation when you may/must wait with your burn (typically your turn1 on-the-play play was followed by their turn1 DRS, or your turn1-go on draw was followed by their turn2 SFM/Bob) and that's when you'll wait in nine out of ten of cases, because you want to play around Daze, you want to draw (fodder for) Fow, you want to see the next card (it might be Grudge for Jitte that SFM found, or Needle for DRS, or w/e).
There are other corner case applications (wait, I'm not talking about instant dmg in combat, I'd hardly call it "corner case application"), like when you deliberately throw your burn into their counterspell on their EOT to force through something more important (maybe... bigger burn?), but mostly the need for instant dmg is in combat or in resp. to discard/Waste. I'm still not convinced that it's that important and that it warrants another burn, because...
...the more removal you play, the less flexible your deck is. Counters hit the creatures and spells but burn doesn't hit the both. (I'm not gonna write on the Dismember and similar stuff, you're quite right, esp. when it doesn't hit PWs.) Truth is that burn may remove or finish the creatures that made it through your counterwall, but there's nothing more annoying than watch them combo out while staring at a set of burn in your hand.
Last note: there are very few flexible slots in the deck, lets say one to three, maybe four cards. (I consider the fifth burn over the set of Bolts to be part of core.) It's pretty hard to trim the deck without hurting it, and I fear that burn no.7+ is very low on my list of priorities.
Good luck in testing, I'm interested in results!
Also, if I'd go that route, I'd consider cutting Stifles completel, as some quite solid lists did, to find those four slots. But maybe instead of this (as Stifle rocks), I'd just worsen my tribal matchup a bit while, throw away Goyfs (and the whole green) and switch to UR Delver.
EDIT:I realize that several of my points became far less important (e.g. playing around counterspells) once you add more removal, as you might smply throw the first burn into the void and then removae the DRS with the other; also the increased number of burn quite helps in case when you can't play around the counterspells at all and must win by sheer numbers. Yet the lost felxibilit and the worsened combo/control mathcup... is it worth the price?
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