So I'll most likely be playing Dreadstill in my next event, whenever that will be. This is the list that I'm leaning towards at the moment (dangerously close to Yan's list).
//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
//CREATURES-11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
//PERMANENTS-4
4 Standstill
//SPELLS-24
1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
//SIDEBOARD-15
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flex slots
Any ideas guys?
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly.Originally Posted by Jander78
"Got any trade boogas?"
I'm playing something very similar to this atm, I've been brewing a lot lists lately and it seems to me that your list is very close to what the perfect dreadstill list would be. I'm thinking mainly on the lavamancers, they are absolutely top-notch in today's meta, as well as acting very well under standstill. I've also, like you, added a 4th waste and cut a misrah. My only disagreement with your list is the fact that you're not running 4 dazes. I think there is a dilemma to playing daze. To get the most out of daze you want it asap, while at the same time it isn't a really great card late other than how it pitches to fow. Given the fact that our deck is now more tempo-oriented than ever, I strongly advocate running 4 daze since it is such an important card on the play. I'd just cut the misdirection tbh, the list simply becomes more tight that way. I'm also a bit curious why you decided to run 21 lands.
21 Lands was always the standard number back in the day, although it's definitely possible that 20 is correct. The thing is though, Wasteland doesn't really count as a mana source at all in this deck. Maybe you use it for Standstill,Dreadnought or Trickbind(9 cards out of 60) every now and then but it isn't ever really going to be a relevant mana source, and neither will Factory. So basically I'm playing 14 true lands.
Daze is probably better now than it has ever been, but you generally don't want to see them even in the midgame. Brainstorm is already pulling double duty shuffling back excess lands and Dreadnoughts. Adding Daze into that equation makes for some clunky situations. I've also got Pierce in the main basically acting as extra Dazes with a bit more staying power. Pierce is just insane right now against every deck I feel like it should be a mainstay in every list. That's just my opinion, it's possible that 4 Daze is where we want to be.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
any thoughts on my list? I am running it at a tournament tomorrow, and any adjustments you veterans could give me would be greatly appreciated.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
I was totally fine with 3 Dazes and I don't think it's a must to have all 4. The point is exactly that sometimes 4 gets clunky, because we don't run other filters like Ponder or such, only BS. Spell Pierce is the optimal support of course.
@HammafistRoob: Your list is only few cards off from mine, so I'm not too surprised. It works for me perfectly, so why not for others :). I would maybe only think, is it mandatory to have exactly Ancient Grudge as the artifact hate, or could the Tropical be replaced with a basic Mountain? What I have found out, is that especially with Lavamancers, it becomes very important to have a non-wastelandable source of red mana, because it's fairly easy to render them useless by just denying the red sources. Also if you plan on bringing in many blasts and still have bolts or mancers in, it's kind of pushing on the number of red sources. But if you feel that you absolutely need the Grudge, then this is the obvious place to cut.
For sideboard, I don't really like to debate, it's so dependent on what you are expecting to face. :). I guess you have a lot of graveyard decks in your meta, and for those, Cage is definitely the best. But have to still say that I really like your list and of course it feels good to notice that through testing, others come to the same conclusions about card choices. It's always easy to pick up a very played deck and take the "optimal" deck list that everyone is playing. But for fringe deck that no-one is playing, like ours, it requires more work from each individual and usually lists differ a lot. But good luck for your next tournament then! I'll be playing this at GP Paris for sure, maybe also in some trials if I find the time for that.
@monovfox: I've never really played with UB versions, so I don't really know what to think about the list. I just can't quite understand how, or in what it is better than the UR version? Tombstalker is a big threat but we already have the Nought. Blacks removal on the other hand can't possibly match with the red ones, so at least for me this is a clear choice. But if you really insist on the Tombstalker plan, I think you should definitely play Vision Charms, as it is a super ritual for the stalker and a way to cheat in nought. You'll loose probably Trickbind, but in this case I feel it's acceptable.
I would probably not run discard in the main deck, and Swan Song doesn't really play well with our strategy. Vision Charm is really good if you plan to run Tombstalkers, so maybe you want them instead of Trickbind. For the maindeck I would say -3 Discard, -2 Trickbind, +2 Vision Charm, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Daze/Pierce/Snare/Flusterstorm. Sideboard I'd swap the Songs and Duress out for some number of Thoughtseize/Flusterstorm/Pierce.
How has Dread been working out of the board? Seems pretty mana intensive here.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Divert is also pretty nasty, too. Misdirection is cool but sometimes the CA can actually be relevant.
I'm also really reluctant to let go of Top completely...I love that card in Dreadstill CB or not.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Got there with the following list:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
2 Trickbind
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Dismember
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Submerge
I liked the maindeck thoughtseize, though the inquisition should have been spell pierce. Probably should have had a 1/1 split of trick bind and vision charm.
Swan Song is actually decent. You just play a dreadnought or tombstalker and go over it.
Sideboard: I played hymn because I wanted to flip delver to it. Goal accomplished, against a combo opponent.
I beat:
Grixis, UWR, and RUG Delver. Played the quarter finals against ANT (I had the most OP standstill draw ever of flusterstorm, force, force. I then drew a swan song. )
I like the idea of swan song against decks where spell pierce is not necessarily a hard counter (read: show and tell and storm). Plus, I can just race a 2/2 swan.
Tombstalker was a total beast.
I should have played disfigure, but I already ordered them from starcity, and didn't feel like buying a playset locally.
I also played thoughtseize because I know people around me like to play Aether Vial decks, and if you can take their good stuff, you win.
also, I've found I like massacre over dread of night, as I can also side it in against UWR Delver and Esper Stoneblade.
Left in first place with a shiny new MP force of will. 3 down, one to go.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
@ Yan, Monovfox: Congrats on your finishes! ;)
I really like this deck and am mostly interested in the red version.
Could anyone enlighten me with boarding (playing Yans list for example)? In which MU do you board out the Dreadnoughts and for which cards? In this list doesn't 3 Needle and 3 Explosives feel excessive? I can't imagine a MU where you want to board 3 Explosives... moreover a sideboard containing so many non instants/sorceries will make Delvers weak after boarding (they are weaker than in the (other) Tempodecks anyway).
I'm concerned about the manabase as well...playing only 13 real manasources and no Ponders, doesn't manacrew happen to often?!
I would be happy if you could enlighten me, as reviving this deck seems like so much fun!
Yeah I agree with you that 3 explosives is a bit excessive. I don't run explosives at all, my board consists of 1 grim, 4 REB, 3 needles, 2 relic of progenitus, 1 surgical extraction, 2 sulfur elementals and 2 divert, its been working decently for m so far. I also share your concern regarding the mana, somehow it does seem to work out though, I guess its because we have so cheap spells. Im considering going for 21 lands though.
I'm also wondering if anyone had the (mis)fortune of facing a BUG landstill deck? I just played vs one on cockatrice and I got completely slaughtered. I guess I shouldnt be too concerned about this deck since most control players play miracles nowadays but still, if BUG landstill becomes more popular I think we are in deep shit. Consider the following: they operate much better under standstill with waste/misrah and creeping-tar pit. They have abrupt decay as well as innocent blood. They play liliana and they play jace. And deed. Lol.
I've been working on a sideboarding guide for my list and sideboard, but i was thinking to probably keep it mostly for myself. Anyway, it's just really detailed so it would only help if you are basically using my exact 75. (Like minus this and plus that).
Concerning the other issues, i would say that it's basically against control decks that you take out the dreadnoughts. Like miracles, various stoneblades, d&t, landstill etc. Reasoning behind this is that they have so much efficient removal, that you will most surely get 2 for 1ed. Maverick is on the edge, but i feel delvers are just not enough to win here, so you need to take that risk with the nought. Jund is probably our nightmare match up, but punishing fire is worse than decay, so i would just put my hopes on dreadnought and misdirection and try to get lucky.
EE for me is a catch all card. In Finland, various chalice decks are always presented, and this deck just rolls over and dies to chalice at 1. I could run some artifact hate here, but i feel EE answers all the things i want to answer, but also provides something extra for some match ups, that i don't have much to bring in against. Let's say belcher and storm decks with empty the warrens.
I admit that this is not the best deck for delver, but it still flips blindly enough times to be still really good. Sometimes you also want to board out the delvers.
Manabase I'm mostly happy with, you just have to fetch basics whenever you can and be more careful. Of course sometimes you have to mulligan to get the right lands. 21 lands is also one solution, if you want to play it more safe.
EDIT: For the UBG Landstill, I don't necessary agree. Yes, it's a difficult match up because of Deed, Decay and Liliana, but certainly not un-winable. And they are definitely not the better deck under Standstill. They usually don't have the full 4 Wastes, but have more manlands, so on the lands, they are maybe better. But we have 8 1-drops to turn it totally upside down and resolving any one of them before Standstill, will result on them breaking the still.
And if anyone is interested in the sideboard guide, I can send it through PM, there's no need to spam the thread with that. Anyway these lists just differ so much, that for most of you guys, it would be just useless.
Last edited by Yan; 12-16-2013 at 04:13 PM.
Spam Spell Pierce and Diverts against BUG Landstill. They are pretty good against us but thankfully they have alot higher curve than us. Our ideal situation is trying to stick Delver against them and getting Standstill down.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Why board noughts out against DnT? As a DnT pilot (with a decent reputation), I believe the most effective route to beat DnT is all-in combo. Use your force of wills aggressively, back your dreadnought up with dazes, and stifle flickerwisp. Bam. If you can go bigger than DnT (not legendary bigger), you will probably end up winning. It's a big part of why the deck is cold to inkwell leviathan and true name nemesis + equipment.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
inkwell and tnn have one big difference to dreadnought, dnt can't remove them in almost anyway. Nought, on the other hand, is just too vulnerable and also difficult to even resolve through all the mana denial. It's going to be a loosing battle to try (I have tried many times). Your other creatures are very well positioned in the match up and sulfur elemental makes it just brutal. I'd rather try going for card advantage than disadvantage, and it's never a good place to be force of willing grizzly bears, you just end up loosing in that trade.
Well, at least that's how I aproach the match up. If you are getting just really luckly, then of course winning with dreadnought will feel easy. it's just not something I would put my hopes on, when there is another way to beat them.
I find DnT quite troublesome at times at well, im not really sure why though. I guess it depends on their 4 StP, flickerwisp and whatnot. So yeah, I tend to board out all my dreadnoughts as well (sometimes leaving a single on in). You seem to be boarding out your FoWs as well?
Here is what I board in vs DnT
+1 grim
+2 sulfur elemental
+3 pithing needle
(+2 divert?)
I am not really sure what to board out though except for dreadnoughts. FoW is an interesting option, what about standstill? its obviously quite bad vs vial, and swinging with misrah is tough vs rishadan and wasteland...
I play the UB version. Tends to shut them down better (discard helps). Death and taxes struggles against fast combo. That's the role we should be playing. Post board you have ~2 spells to counter, and 2 triggers to stifle. If that fails, you drop a big threat. If that fails, you have time walked for 4 turns.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
UB versions don't have such a game against creatures, as the UR has, so they probably have to go for the combo. I would definitely start by boarding out dreadnoughts and trickbinds (stifle can still be efficient), then comes spell pierce, which doesn't have so many targets. Misdirection is also a bit narrow here. My force comment was more on the matter, that you want to save them for things that matter, like stops, not to counter some random bear with a good ability, which you can anyway shoot down with your red cards. I still rather have a deck that controls all of their creatures, than try to go for the lucky quick win.
You save the force for STP, and stifle for their creatures. It's the most effecient way to fight them.
No need to counter their creatures. Just trample over them, or go larger and fly.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
let's be honest. It means you need probably 2 stifle effects in hand, then add to that Thalia, port and waste. That's a lot of mana for this deck to accomplish. I just don't see it happening. If they have stop, you still need 4 cards and butt load of mana. I agree that the UB version doesn't have another option, so they have to, but UR has, and the other option is much better. many will see my 3 sulfur elementals, and think that I must really fear dnt, but it really is not only for that, because it's also a control killer.
I still believe that if you go for the dreadnought plan, you will have more success than the other plan of actions. Pull a standstill, 1x daze, and 1x spell pierce for some hate cards (perhaps tombstalker being pulled is correct, they might bring in rest in peace).
As someone who has tested the matchup on both sides, I think the dreadnought plan will get there 90% of the time. Unless the following are true:
They have resolved a turn 1 vial.
They have a turn 2 thalia, and you have no way to deal with it (if they have mana denial). BUT, you'll have the power of removal and -1/-1 effects, so that basically eliminates the only problems in the matchup.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
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