[Deck] Natural Order RUG

[Final Fortune]

Do you have any lists to suggest?

It'd be interesting to try it in black post DRS and A.Decay.

[Arsenal]

The thing I always liked about ProBant and NO RUG was that NOPro decks could basically operate like any UGx aggro-control deck, then all of a sudden go "10/10 Pro Everything, pass". When I played ProBant, there were many, many games where I didn't even cast Natural Order because I was simply going in on the "swing with my Exalted Clique" plan and didn't really see a need for my to pop Natural Order. You don't need to "build" your deck around NOPro, it just takes 4-5 slots that give you a different look.

[thecrav]

It'd be interesting to try it in black post DRS and A.Decay.

So basically Junk with NO-Pro in it?

[Asthereal]

My lists (untuned to current meta, so might need some changes):

NO RUG 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Tarmogoyf 3 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Force of Will 4 Daze 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Lightning Bolt 2 Fire // Ice /29 3 Tropical Island 3 Volcanic Island 1 Taiga 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Wooded Foothills 2 Scalding Tarn /18 Side: 3 Grim Lavamancer 1 Fire // Ice 3 Red Elemental Blast 3 Spell Pierce 2 Ancient Grudge / Krosan Grip 1 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

NO BANT 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Tarmogoyf 3 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Force of Will 3 Daze 3 Spell Pierce 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Swords to Plowshares /29 3 Tropical Island 3 Tundra 1 Savannah 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Windswept Heath 2 Flooded Strand /18 Side: 4 Path to Exile 1 Daze 3 Spell Snare 3 Oblivion Ring 2 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

NO BUG 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Tarmogoyf 3 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Force of Will 3 Daze 3 Spell Pierce 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Abrupt Decay /29 3 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Bayou 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Verdant Catacombs 2 Polluted Delta /18 Side: 4 Disfigure 4 Duress 1 Daze 2 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

[Tombstalker]

*casts reanimate*

So I just came into a set of natural orders and I'm wondering does anyone still play this deck anymore? Id love to hear about your experiences and innovations!
Id also like to try brewing a newer version of NO RUG, maybe even black over red now. Hell we might even be able to mash shardless into it.

Any NO RUG players still out there? Did the newest sweepers and griselbrand and such kill this deck?

[Asthereal]

Nothing really killed this deck. People just stopped playing it after Mental misstep got banned. But it's actually very valid. I played both PRO Bant and NO RUG after the banning of Misstep, and they performed fine. The decisive factor for me not making top-8 was my suboptimal play, and one bad matchup on a wrong moment in the tourney.

My lists haven't changed much since my last post. Only the sideboards are different. But I must say that the last three tourneys I was on Storm Combo, so I haven't touched the lists for a while. I am thinking about running the NO BUG deck in the next one. Still need to tune it a bit though.

[SirTylerGalt]

*casts reanimate*

So I just came into a set of natural orders and I'm wondering does anyone still play this deck anymore? Id love to hear about your experiences and innovations!
Id also like to try brewing a newer version of NO RUG, maybe even black over red now. Hell we might even be able to mash shardless into it.

Any NO RUG players still out there? Did the newest sweepers and griselbrand and such kill this deck?

Reid Duke played NO RUG at the last SCG Invitational. Here is the deck tech:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...ug_with_r.html

[Asthereal]

Interesting list, that is. He plays an additional land and a pretty steep curve with seven CMC=4 cards.

He also mentiones that he sides Finks for the Canadian Threshold matchup and keeps his Natural orders, where I have a WAY different approach to that particular matchup. I always side out the combo, and add a few extra creatures and removal. My strategy is basically to just have more Tarmogoyfs than the Thresh player, and win that way. It has been a good strategy for me, but I think I'll try the extra land and keeping the Orders in. I would in that case actually up the Kitchen Finks count to three, since it's just very good against many popular decks right now.

[Tombstalker]

Ya all the high CMC cards looks clunky but then ive never played this deck. Keeping that in mind maybe this is obvious to those of you who have but why not goose over some number of goyfs to protect the combo from removal?

Also If this deck were to shift into BUG thoughtseize seems like a great compliment to clique plus decay and DRS as obvious choices (maybe a mix of hierarch and DRS since GSZ is present).

[Kich867]

Ya all the high CMC cards looks clunky but then ive never played this deck. Keeping that in mind maybe this is obvious to those of you who have but why not goose over some number of goyfs to protect the combo from removal?

Also If this deck were to shift into BUG thoughtseize seems like a great compliment to clique plus decay and DRS as obvious choices (maybe a mix of hierarch and DRS since GSZ is present).

BUG seems like the naturally better choice for the deck, giving you access to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, as well as discard to attack combo from a different angle. I built it a bit ago without Jaces (don't own them) and it felt pretty good, would have been far more dominant with Jace however.

And in regardst o Mongoose over Goyf, Goyf is just a bigger beater. Even if he can be removed, he gives you a legitimate option to just kill your opponent without the combo, goose takes awhile to get online and is not good at playing D when you need him to.

[Tombstalker]

Fair enough on gooses defensive abilities although exalted goose sounds great, in theory.

Maybe I should move this into shardless bug but whats the thoughts on shardless agent + natural order? Obviously daze is a nonbo but I think the rest might have some merit. Consider that with 2 dryad arbors cascading into GSZ actually becomes worthwhile due to enabling the combo with protection from liliana.

Basically talking about replacing JTMS and baleful strix with NO package including GSZ, clique in place of hymn and maxing the FoW count. Instead of little cantripping stallers you get the GSZ engine +diverse targets and progenitus + the crazy card advantage inherent to shardless.

Edit- just to get a quick idea of what it would look like, something like this maybe:

4 shardless agent
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 noble hierarch

4 Brainstorm
4 ancestral vision

4 Force of Will
3 thoughtseize

4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay

Lands 20
9 fetches
3 Trops
3 Sea
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest

This deck looks like it can do some seriously broken stuff.

[SirTylerGalt]

I remember testing Goaswerfraiejen's UGB River Rock deck a while ago on Cockatrice. It's a BUG deck with tons of cool interaction as well as the NO kill. You might want to look here if you are interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post735088

I also found a NO-BUG thread while searching for the UGB River Rock thread, might be worth taking a look:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...52-Deck-NO-BUG

[Tombstalker]

Thanks for the links you my friend rock!

[Asthereal]

The Shardless + Vision thing seems not to fit.
The lowest I got was 64 cards in the main, which is of course unplayable.
So I guess we should drop that idea.
Let me try to sum up the idea of the NO RUG deck and it's splash brothers.


SOME IMPORTANT NOTES ON NOPRO MIDRANGE DECK BUILDING:

1. U-count
In building NOPRO decks, the biggest issue I came around was the blue count for FoW. The deck just wants to play so many cards that aren't blue that FoW gets bad very quickly. But FoW is absolutely necessary to protect Natural Order and save us from opposing combo.
The general rule is we need at least 18 blue cards inclusing FoW, but I prefer 20+ for consistency. We should also keep in mind the u-count after sideboarding. Taking out 4 blue cards and putting in 4 non-blue cards makes FoW much worse, and if your u-count is really low it might even make FoW unuseable.

2. Plan B
Which is actually often plan A. This deck is mostly good because it can also just play Goyf aggro.
Remove or counter the most important opposing threats, and ride the Lhurgoyfs to victory.
Since this is often my main win, I feel it is wrong to go below 4 Goyfs (like Reid Duke did).
Yes, you can Zenith for them, but that opens you up to Submerge, Spell Pierce and costs a mana more.


CARDS WE ABSOLUTELY NEED:

Creatures:

1 Dryad Arbor (We could go up to two, but they pretty much suck in your opening hand.)
4 Noble Hierarch / Deathrite Shaman (Shaman is more versatile, but the main purpose of this slot is 'green mana dude', and Shaman needs lands in the yard to be able to create mana. If we are not playing black -Shaman's best ability- I feel Hierarch is better here.)
4 Tarmogoyf (Our main dude.)
3 Vendilion Clique (Blue, protects NOPRO, gets rid of drawn Proggie, flying+exalted is a nice clock too. Four is definitely an option, but not mandatory.)
1 Progenitus (Obviously.) /13 cards

Spells:

4 Brainstorm (Obviously. Digging for Natural Order is important. Ditching drawn Proggies and Arbors is good too.)
4 Force of Will (Best counterspell out there.)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (Functions as a Llanowar Elf if you fetch Arbor, but also gets Goyf if you need a proper beater. Key card, though three is probably the correct number since it's somewhat slow.)
4 Natural Order (Our 'unfair' way to win. There is debate -also in my head- whether Natural Order is unfair enough to create a deck around, but that's what we are doing right now, so let's just assume it is.) /15 cards

Lands:

3-4 Tropical Island (Depending on whether you want to play 18 or 19 normal lands.)
3 Volcanic / Tundra / Underground Sea
1 Taiga / Savannah / Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3-4 Wooded Foothills / Windswept Heath / Verdant Catacombs
1-2 Scalding Tarn / Flooded Strand / Polluted Delta (Many believe that fetching Dryad Arbor is so important that we should always maximize our green fetch, but I believe that the main purpose of our fetch is to stabilize our mana base, and the ability to fetch the basic Island is a big part of that, so I play the second blue fetch and only three green fetch.) /18-19 cards

These mandatory cards get us up to 13+ 15 + 18 = 46 cards, of which only 11 are blue (not counting Proggie, because who would want to exile that guy?). So we have only 14 cards to fill up the rest of the deck.


WHAT ELSE DO WE WANT?

Removal:

We would like to not die to a flipped Delver of Secrets or Aven Mindcensor or whatever other annoying dudes are out there. So we need some ways to get rid of them. White has the best creature removal there is: Swords to Plowshares. The big problem is that that's basically it. The rest is just strictly worse. Path to Exile is okay as a sideboard card, Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere are slow as hell, so White would add 4x Swords to Plowshares to the main deck and probably leave it at that.
Red has Lightning Bolt as its best removal. Second best is Chain Lightning, though in some metas (like the current one) Forked Bolt could be as good, if not better. For a mana more we have Fire // Ice and Izzet Charm. Fire is just an expensive Forked Bolt, but it's blue, which is a very big deal in this deck. Izzet Charm has a very challenging mana cost, which scares me away from it, but I should test it some time. A while back people would sometimes also play 1-2 main deck Grim Lavamancer, but I feel that these are more sideboard material since they don't really complement the deck that much (not green for Order, not blue for FoW, doesn't protect Order itself). My choices would be: 4x Lightning Bolt and 2x Fire // Ice.
Black has an enormous range of options. Abrupt Decay seems best since it's uncounterable and removes not only creatures but also Counterbalance, Liliana of the Veil and so on. Other options could be Disfigure, Dismember, Go for the Throat, Smother, Diabolic Edict, Ghastly Demise and Maelstrom Pulse. All of these have distinct disadvantages, so I would only add a selection of these to the sideboard, and just have 4x Decay in the main.

Disruption / protection of Natural Order:

The two options that immidiately spring to mind are Daze and Spell Pierce, the most used couterspells other than Force of Will. Daze has the obvious disadvantage that it's a very soft counter. It's easy to play around. but it's free, and that's a big deal when we are trying to sevolve a CMC=4 card as soon as we can. We won't have much mana to spare. I think Daze is a necessary evil. Good news is: we are finally upping our blue count.
Spell Pierce is a better counterspell, but it has a harder time protecting Natural Order. I like to have a few of these either main deck or on side, especially since Storm Combo is a big thing in the Netherlands. In the US it might be possible to leave these out.
Black has the additional option of targeted discard. Thoughtseize seems best since it can take all dangerous cards. In a meta full of aggro I wouldn't play those, but they are an option as well. Big problem with discard spells is that they aren't blue.
Misdirection is also a fringe card that you could play. In a meta full of Jund and so on I think a few of these could work. I've never tried them in a real tournament though. But it's one to watch, since it works well with the rest of the deck. It's free, it stops counters and it sends back discard and removal spells. Very useful, though rather narrow.

Digging for the goodies:

Brainstorm by itself I feel isn't enough to be able to rely on Natural Order as a winner. The logical options here are Ponder and Sylvan Library. Ponder I feel is very very good in this deck. It helps tremendously in setting up turn three Orders: turn 1 mana dork, turn 2 Brainstorm, then fetch, then Ponder, turn 3 Natural Order with FoW backup is an option. So is turn 1 Ponder, turn 2 Brainstorm, then fetch, then play mana dude, turn 3 Natural Order with FoW backup. Of course any of these sequences can be extended to turn 4 by addingg a turn for EOT/EODraw Step Vendilion Clique.
Sylvan Library is also a good card, thoughj it of course serves a different purpose. It doesn;t really help all that well to dig for a specific card right now. It's more of a long term improvement to the card selection, and gives us card advantage against slower control decks and combo decks that don't care about our life total. I think Sylvan Library is very good, but it's not blue, so I usually don't manage to fit it in.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the last card I will discuss. I put it under this category of cards, but kit of course deserves a category of its own. Jace helps us dig for stuff, it's a great wincon on its own and it bounces annoying dudes so we can counter them later on. It's also blue, which is nice since Jace isn't brilliant on turn 1-3, so we can feed him to FoW early on and draw a fresh one later to seal the game for us. Disadvantages: he costs 4 mana, which is the same amount as our unfair wincon, and he doesn't complement the deck that much either, since he doesn't quickly dig, protect Order or remove early threats. But Jace is a force on his own. Jace can draw the counterspell that they needed to stop Order, and he can win the game by himself, leaving us not caring about Order anymore. I am yet to try him in the main deck, but I definitely see a place for him.


THE SIDEBOARD.

The sideboard depends strongly on your meta and how you wish to play against some of the harder matchups. I have been a fan of siding out the combo against Canadian Threshold, for instance. They disrupt my fetches and duals, and they burn my mana dudes. This often keeps me from casting Natural Order. So I take it out and add 1-2 Scavenging Ooze and some additional removal. The game then comes down to who has the most Tarmogoyfs, which is often me. It worked well so far, though there are other options as well.
We need creature removal for Maverick, Jund and heavy creature aggro. Thalia, Aven Mindcensor and their brothers need answers. Especially Mother of Runes should die, since she sort of cancels out our removal. Dark Confidant should also be killed on sight, since he draws Jund into too many discard spells and Lilianas. Remember that Lily can easily kill Progenitus if we have no proper way to stop her. And if we manage to fetch an Arbor in response to her -2 and manage to kill her with an attack, they can just play a new one the turn after.
What we basically need is: more removal, some grave hate, some hate against combo (remember the main deck usually just loses to strong ANT players!) and something against heavy control decks.

Troublesome cards are:
Dudes: Aven Mindcensor; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; Dark Confidant; Gaddock Teeg (stops Order and Zenith); Mother of Runes; any creature that threatens to kill us.
Spells: Liliana of the Veil; counterspells that can counter Natural Order; stuff like Ad Nauseam; Infernal Tutor; Dream Halls; Show and Tell; Enter the Infinite and so on; fringe cards like Humility; Moat; Perish.
I probably forgot quite a few cards here, so don't hesitate to suggest more!

Red:

Red has nice stuff against creatures. I like to add 2-3 Grim Lavamancer plus one or two additional burn spells. This helps a lot against dangerous creatures. Burn can also take out a Liliana if needed.
Red Elemental Blast though is the main reason to play red. Blue is always very popular and REB is just so versatile against them, taking out Delvers and Jaces, and countering FoWs and so on. Merfolk really doesn't like the NO RUG matchup since REB, burn and Lavamancers is just too much for them to handle. So REB comes in against blue midrange and control, and of course against blue combo and Merfolk. Some additional counters help against combo and perhaps control as well. Against heavy control we can take out burn spells, so we have some space to add both REB and counterspells.
Ooze is just a versatile dude that goes in against Canadian Thresh, and the Extractions supplement it against grave based strategies.

White:

For creature removal we have only Path to Exile, Submerge and bounce. Since the latter two work only temporarily if the opponent plays carefully, I highly prefer the Paths. I also like 2-3 Detention Spheres since they help against Show and Tell, next to removing troublesome non-creature permanents. Fringe use: exile a row of Empty the Warrens tokens.
To hose combo decks I like to add a few extra counterspells, usually a 4th Daze and 3rd and 4th Spell Pierce, and often one Gaddock Teeg. Against fast combo, I usually take out the combo, since it's too slow. Since I also have to take out Sowrds to Plowshares I have enough space to also add Detention Sphere and perhaps some number of Surgical Extractions.
Against control I like to add the Spheres as well. They remove troublesome permanents like planeswalkers or so. Furthermore I usually add a few counterspells, taking out the four StP.

Black:

In the black splash we have Decays in the main deck, so we don't have to fear permanents as much. Two extra Maelstrom Pulses can be nice against Jaces, Elspeths, Humilities and Moats, and help against Empty the Warrens. The creature removal package this time consists mainly of Disfigures. Since the creatures we fear are small but fast, we need fast removal that kills */2 creatures. Disfigure does a fine job there. You can also add Dismembers against bigger guys. They can also kill Mother of Runes on turn one, though at a higher cost.
The usual Ooze plus Extractions are there, supplemented by some Thoughtseizes and one or two counterspells. These are there against combo and heavy control, to either stop them from killing us or to clear the way for Natural Order.


SO WHERE DOES THIS GET US?

These are the lists as I would play them, with flex slots that can be adjusted according to your preference and meta.

Red splash: NO RUG 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Tarmogoyf 3-4 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13-14 4 Brainstorm 2-4 Ponder 0-1 Sylvan Library 4 Force of Will 3-4 Daze 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Lightning Bolt 1-2 Fire // Ice 0-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor /27-29 3-4 Tropical Island 3 Volcanic Island 1 Taiga 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Wooded Foothills 2 Scalding Tarn /18-19 Side: 2-3 Grim Lavamancer 1-2 Fire // Ice / Forked Bolt 3-4 Red Elemental Blast 1-2 Daze 2-3 Spell Pierce 2 Ancient Grudge / Krosan Grip 1 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

White splash: NOPRO BANT 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Tarmogoyf 3-4 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13-14 4 Brainstorm 2-4 Ponder 0-1 Sylvan Library 4 Force of Will 3-4 Daze 0-3 Spell Pierce 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Swords to Plowshares 0-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor /27-29 3-4 Tropical Island 3 Tundra 1 Savannah 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Windswept Heath 2 Flooded Strand /18-19 Side: 3-4 Path to Exile 0-2 Rhox War Monk 0-1 Gaddock Teeg 0-1 Daze 0-2 Spell Pierce 3 Detention Sphere 1-2 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

Black splash: NO BUG 1 Dryad Arbor 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Tarmogoyf 3-4 Vendilion Clique 1 Progenitus /13-14 4 Brainstorm 2-4 Ponder 0-1 Sylvan Library 4 Force of Will 3-4 Daze 0-3 Spell Pierce 3 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 4 Abrupt Decay 0-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor /27-29 3-4 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Bayou 1 Island 1 Forest 4 Misty Rainforest 3 Verdant Catacombs 2 Polluted Delta /18-19 Side: 0-1 Daze 0-3 Spell Pierce 2-4 Thoughtseize 2-4 Disfigure 0-2 Dismember 2 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Scavenging Ooze 2 Surgical Extraction /15

I like all three lists about equally, and I will consider them all for every tournament I play.
(Not withstanding the fact that I own almost every relevant deck in Legacy... )

[Tombstalker]

Holy.. that was a great post Asthereal, damn near a primer!

After further testing I agree the shardless shell isnt where this deck wants to be. Ive been testing RUG and BUG and I am pretty confident that RUG is still the more powerful version.

[Asthereal]

Played a local tourney yesterday with PRO Bant. The list is rather similar to NO RUG, only with white instead of red (see my post above). I wrote a report in the Bant thread, but it deserves a link here, because this is actually where it fits best.
You can find it here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ck-Bant/page61

[ShiftyKapree]

In the current meta does anyone believe NO Rug or NO Bant could make a come back?

[monovfox]

Wouldn't this deck be really strong if it just played 2x REB's in the maindeck? Liliana kinda died out (atleast enough that she isn't a big problem), and this deck can maindeck fire/ice and/or forked bolt.

[Mhenlo]

Wouldn't this deck be really strong if it just played 2x REB's in the maindeck? Liliana kinda died out (atleast enough that she isn't a big problem), and this deck can maindeck fire/ice and/or forked bolt.

problem with this deck now is all the decks this used this shell now are better with Delver of Secrets and that card does not support Natural Order

[monovfox]

problem with this deck now is all the decks this used this shell now are better with Delver of Secrets and that card does not support Natural Order

With everyone and their mother playing 69 removal spells, kind doubt it