To all those talking about pithing needle, what are you thoughts about running phyrexian revoker instead? The downside is that you can not name lands (wasteland, karakas, tarpit etc), the plus is that you can name mana abilities like (LED, birchlore rangers). It attacks, which is nice in Storm and show and tell based combo matchups (I side 2 in over 2 tarmogoyf as tarmo rarely has more than three power anyway), but it also dies to swords against miracles or and our own golgari charms against elves and DnT.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I would seem to imagine that it is largely a meta call… I don't think one is vastly superior to another, thought I was hoping to get some additional thoughts in the issue
Versus combo, revoker is better because he represents another clock and can shut off led/heritage/birchlore
Versus control, needle is better because its harder to remove. Most non-bg decks only have about 2-3 postboard answers to artifacts/enchantments. Vs something like blade or miracles, needle is basically "turn off all instances of said card for the game".
Having been Julians punching bag when he tested for BoM has been unsurprisingly usefull after elves became a real deck. It is indeed one of TA's worst mu's.
Game one your best chance to win is delver and ts beats. Hope they stumble and beat the living shit out of their pointy ears. You are very ill-equipped to win any real game of magic here, instead just hope they have one of the extremes of a draw: the slow grind you out (you can race this in air) or the T3 kill (if they go for it and you counter maybe you. An race in air.
Notice how tarmogoyf matches out poorly against the other kind of beatable draw.
Obviously real gameplay is far from this simple but this should give you an idea of how the games you win play out.
Postboard however is totally different. They bring in decays to answer not only delver but cage - which is an insanely good card against them here as it stops their 2 best cards in the mu. These games are one of the grindiest in the format. Playing against cb-miracles is not this grindy:D
The nature of these games makes hymn mediocre. Julian is very familiar with the feeling of having both NO targets stranded in his hand, and in the champs I got to spread this joy to another elf player too. The games are simply long enough for them to draw these and that makes NO, their best weapon, an almost complete blank.
Make no mistake, you cannot give them a single turn to NO you out. This means sometimes having to let gsz resolve in the early game if you are holding f.e only 1 pierce for NO. Always assume they are holding cradle. Always be wary of their mana count and what they can do with it. NO with 2 floating is very real danger in the early midgame to the late midgame. Lategame, they are propably holding craterhoof. Try to not let them cast it.
Most lists only run 2 bayou. If you get to waste both their drs becomes a lot worse (usually only 1 birchlore after that for B mana). This can be key in long games.
Nettle beatz is a very real thing. This and drs machine gun gets you more often than you think.
All in all, this is one of the most skill intensive mu's atm (imo). Thus one you should playtest extensively. Elves is so interactive and complicated that there are no always correct lines.
Originally Posted by Race War
@Deviant: I concur with most of what you have said. Are you saying hymn is bad against them because the games tend to go long or is it also because they can recover from it easily if they have Wirewood Symbiote+Elvish Visionary combo? I think I will just have to put in practice games against the deck like you said, but will playing elves myself help in learning how to play against it?
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Hymn is "bad" because of all those factors combined. They can recover from it, it tends to not do enough, if you play hymn and they hit you with a nettle and quirion and drain 4 with drs you might already be too far behind.
There is also the issue of card quantity (after the hymns you propably are already shaving some goyfs) and hymn being a bad topdeck later on.
Elves have tremendous staying power, and having dead draws in the deck can easily cost us the lategame.
Baring in mind I'm generally a Jund player, but I find Hymns tend to be good when they use Wirewood Symbiote effects in response to removal. Granted it's essentially 2:1ing yourself (sometimes) but it does get rid of their key cards.
May I advice experimenting with targeting the symbiote instead of creatures not named "wirewood symbiote" when there is one such insect on the battlefield?
Interesting. I think your SB looks well equipped to handle the matchup. Golgari Charm, Disfigure, and Grafdigger's Cage are all very good here. You might actually think about bringing in V.Clique. I have seen that card used to great effect against Elves. Granted, it's a bit of a nonbo with G.Charm.
I must say, I find this surprising. I didn't know the matchup was so bad. But I don't primarily play TA at all. I just had it built to mess around with. Keep in mind, you were testing against the Lieutenant of Llanowar, Julian. He isn't your average Elves player. And your logic IRT Hymn makes perfect sense.
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Against Elves, I SB thusly:
-4 Hymn
-4 Daze
-2-3 Tarmogoyf (worst creature in this matchup, lack of evasion means he hardly EVER connects, especially once they get that irritating insect creature out)
+3 Golgari Charm
+3/4 Disfigure (my current list has 2 Lili MD, and 4 Disfigure in the SB)
+1/2 Grafdigger's Cage (however many you have)
+1 Vendilion Clique
And then whatever else you may have. Tombstalker, Delvers, and Clique will be the primary damage dealers, with DRS also pinging here and there. The strategy is basically to just slow them down by killing things on sight, and sandbag a FoW for their Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature or GSZ. Keep in mind they are bringing in 1-2 Scavening Ooze, so you need to hold onto Abrupt Decay for those.
Given how commen Elves and DNT seem to be lately, it might be worthwhile to bring back Darkblast and/or Engineered Plague.
I agree with your comments.
I think darkblast could be very good because it also helps an early casting of tombstalker. Engineered plaque is great but quite expensive. Darkblast has a target from turn 1 onwards.
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
I agree in general, if you have multiple removal spells, but if you know that you need to get rid one of their key creature(s) to stop them comboing the next turn, it's advisable to not hit Symbiote and instead get them to bounce the primary threat in order to get them to discard it via hymn, etc.
I anyone running stifles main deck?
I cut the hymns down to 3, the 2 flex spots normally library and lilly and go to 19 vs 20 land. Same as RUG.
This gives you the 4 slots needed.
I have and i've been liking it.
I actually took out a ponder for a sylvan library because it gives you the draws so much better if you are in a rut compared to an extra ponder.
@ Kinsley and KobeBryan: How are you liking the stifles?
I've loved them in RUG but our curve is a little bit higher so I'm still undecided if it is best option for our deck (we do run DRS so this may negate the higher curve).
I'm 3-0 vs Mono-Red Imperial Painter in a tournament setting, but I haven't played much TA lately. As far as I see it, the match-up is far from unwinnable, even if one can explain my result with variance. Tarmogoyf is a freaking beast in the match-up, it's quite easily a 6/7 (dead Painter and Blood Moon plus the usual stuff), which puts him on a 3-turn clock or sometimes even 2 if you have an Elf in play or he's been greedy with Ancient Tomb.
Hymn is a boss vs them too, since their only way to generate card advantage is through recruiter.
Currently playing:
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I know this had been said a lot of times but I just can't seem to win RUG with this deck(maybe i am a lousy player or bad at this deck) Their mana denial plan is stronger than ours, my hymns, lands seldom hit play or stay for long. Or is my cantripping bad?
I actually find that our deck stacks up quite well against RUG. 20 lands to their 18 means that you're more likely to get mana sources while still having Wasteland pressure, Deathrite Shaman steadily hoses Nimble Mongoose, you actually have a trump to their Tarmogoyfs in Abrupt Decay, and they can't profitably deal with Tombstalker preboard (postboard, well, Submerge renders it uncastable). Disfigure is great postboard, and Liliana is just a nightmare for them to deal with if you can get one to stick.
Delver matchups are always quite swingy because tempo mirrors depend so much on how the draws work out but I feel like Team America is favoured.
i don't think we need to put golgari charms anymore.
the way i'm testing, people board out their 2-3 TNN in an attempt to next level us. The same way we next level people who bring in Rest in peace.
We should try to next level people with the TNN plan because at this time, the matchup against RUW is difficult because they bring in RIP and board out TNN, which makes several of our cards useless. Of course we can use golgari charm for enchantments, but its not as useful as it is in practice.
I think you may be reading too much into this "next leveling" thing.
Not only makes siding out tnn our tarmogoyfs better, it is not making our charms significantly worse as RiP still needs to die on sight and it still regenerages delvers and drs from bolts if need be.
If they want to side out tnn and not bring in rip to make charms worse, I'll take it.
I don't see this happening though?
The card is also used in other mu's as well. Had tnn not seen print I think I'd still play 1-2.
I concur with Deviant. Rest in Peace is most certainly coming in against us unless for some reason they don't have it in their board. Having 2-3 Golgari Charm takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill the pesky enchantment so that we can use the latter to kill Delver and SFM in the UWR matchup. Plus, it seems bad to board out threats in an already rather threat light deck (most UWR lists only play 10 creatures total md so they're going down to 8 boarding out their md TNNs). So I say let people play badly and still bring the charm in since it's so flexible in what it can do.
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