[Deck] 12 Post

[Postman]

I don't normally post two concurrent lists. But here is my list that works alongside the list I am testing:

Known-to-work list. 4-0 at local event.
U/G

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

Yesterday I tested Rock Lee's "Known-to-work" list in several matches, and I'm really impressed!
I had some doubts before testing about Ponder. But Rock Lee was sooooooo right to put this card in the Deck! I'd like to ask everbody who is on the UG build : just give it a try, I'm sure you won't regret it

In one match my opponent played a Crucible of Worlds. I have to admit : it made me jealous. With 4 Tops in the deck, Crucible + Fetchland would be really nice for shuffle effects...and enemy Wastelands would become really bad. Perhaps I will try to cut one Expedtion Map for one Crucible. Any ideas or experiences?

[203995014]

Yesterday I tested Rock Lee's "Known-to-work" list in several matches, and I'm really impressed!
I had some doubts before testing about Ponder. But Rock Lee was sooooooo right to put this card in the Deck! I'd like to ask everbody who is on the UG build : just give it a try, I'm sure you won't regret it

In one match my opponent played a Crucible of Worlds. I have to admit : it made me jealous. With 4 Tops in the deck, Crucible + Fetchland would be really nice for shuffle effects...and enemy Wastelands would become really bad. Perhaps I will try to cut one Expedtion Map for one Crucible. Any ideas or experiences?

Do you think Ponder should also be played in the RUG version? It seems like a great card to have but the list is really tight.

[BVB09]

Yesterday I tested Rock Lee's "Known-to-work" list in several matches, and I'm really impressed!
I had some doubts before testing about Ponder. But Rock Lee was sooooooo right to put this card in the Deck! I'd like to ask everbody who is on the UG build : just give it a try, I'm sure you won't regret it

In one match my opponent played a Crucible of Worlds. I have to admit : it made me jealous. With 4 Tops in the deck, Crucible + Fetchland would be really nice for shuffle effects...and enemy Wastelands would become really bad. Perhaps I will try to cut one Expedtion Map for one Crucible. Any ideas or experiences?

I'm testing almost the same list, but 3 Pithing Needle instead of the Ponders and just 1 Candelabra. I really can't see how this deck could work without them.
I have cut them to test a few times and always miss them. You have also cut one Crop Rotation, which is your plan against Wasteland? Or is your list more focused on winning against Conbo/control?
Thanks

[Postman]

Do you think Ponder should also be played in the RUG version? It seems like a great card to have but the list is really tight.

Haven't done so much testing with the RUG version so far, hard to say. Do you play the traditional list with only Bonfires or the "new" one which has also Bolts? Could you post your list?

I'm testing almost the same list, but 3 Pithing Needle instead of the Ponders and just 1 Candelabra. I really can't see how this deck could work without them.
I have cut them to test a few times and always miss them. You have also cut one Crop Rotation, which is your plan against Wasteland? Or is your list more focused on winning against Conbo/control?
Thanks

At my last (tiny) tournament I played needles, too. But you don't really NEED them. Sure, they are nice to have MOST of the time, no question. But a Ponder offers you so much more control of your deck and is ALWAYS nice to have. And it's pitchable into FoW. Don't be afraid of Wastelands. First of all, your opponent has to find them. And if he does, using them slowes him down, too. Remember: the longer the match, the better for us! ;-) In the time he is "looking" for Wastelands, we have 4 Tops, 4 Brainstorms, 3 Ponders to look for a Crop Rotation, that shouldn't be too bad. If we manage to find it, great! He loses a land, sweet. If we can't, ok, one land is gone. That is not as bad as it sounds. There are several cantrips mentioned before plus 3 Expedition Maps to find a new one. IMO it's important to find a copy of Crop Rotation before you play Chasmn. If opponent tries to handle it, it could save your game (Wasteland on Chasmn, in response Crop for Vesuva, copying Chasmn). Same plan against Flickerwisp and so on

[BVB09]

At my last (tiny) tournament I played needles, too. But you don't really NEED them. Sure, they are nice to have MOST of the time, no question. But a Ponder offers you so much more control of your deck and is ALWAYS nice to have. And it's pitchable into FoW. Don't be afraid of Wastelands. First of all, your opponent has to find them. And if he does, using them slowes him down, too. Remember: the longer the match, the better for us! ;-) In the time he is "looking" for Wastelands, we have 4 Tops, 4 Brainstorms, 3 Ponders to look for a Crop Rotation, that shouldn't be too bad. If we manage to find it, great! He loses a land, sweet. If we can't, ok, one land is gone. That is not as bad as it sounds. There are several cantrips mentioned before plus 3 Expedition Maps to find a new one. IMO it's important to find a copy of Crop Rotation before you play Chasmn. If opponent tries to handle it, it could save your game (Wasteland on Chasmn, in response Crop for Vesuva, copying Chasmn). Same plan against Flickerwisp and so on

I will give it another try then, thank you for your thoughts, seems a interesting choice :)
And what do you think about the Candelabras? I don't know if they aren't played more because of budget reasons or because lists are too tight?
Sometimes it feels the best card in the deck, but others it doesn't do anything, and as I'm quite new to the deck, I'm not sure.
Thanks

[Postman]

I will give it another try then, thank you for your thoughts, seems a interesting choice :)
And what do you think about the Candelabras? I don't know if they aren't played more because of budget reasons or because lists are too tight?
Sometimes it feels the best card in the deck, but others it doesn't do anything, and as I'm quite new to the deck, I'm not sure.
Thanks

I guess they aren't played because of budget reasons, yes. Sure, they are extreme expensive AND there are only a few decks they fit in (e.g. Spiral Tide), but everybody who has access to them must play them in this deck. Just had to get my third one a few days ago...outch!

They are like a magnet for Fow, Decay and similar cards. And with good reasons: they can do mana-fixing in early part of the game, or speed you up in mid-game in an insane way^^ A few times I was lucky to place to of them on the board at the same time...almost unlimited mana Your opponent knows about the potential of this card, for sure. So he must answer it. If he isn't able to force it, there won't be a FoW in his hand, so cast your Titan/SnT and smile. If he forces the Candelabra...cast Titan/SnT! If he is really really lucky, he has another Fow + pitchable card, might happen. But in that rare case, you lost 2 cards, your opponent 4 cards. So the chances to reach the late-game are realy good now. The only suboptimal situation I can think of are 2 (or 3...) candelabras at the first seven. 2 can still be playable, depending on the rest.

I'm still testing with a single copy of Maze of Ith. With Candelabra on board, you have soooo much time against decks playing beasts like Delver, SFM + Batterskull before you have to hide behind the Chasmn...you could almost order pizza!

[203995014]

Haven't done so much testing with the RUG version so far, hard to say. Do you play the traditional list with only Bonfires or the "new" one which has also Bolts? Could you post your list?



At my last (tiny) tournament I played needles, too. But you don't really NEED them. Sure, they are nice to have MOST of the time, no question. But a Ponder offers you so much more control of your deck and is ALWAYS nice to have. And it's pitchable into FoW. Don't be afraid of Wastelands. First of all, your opponent has to find them. And if he does, using them slowes him down, too. Remember: the longer the match, the better for us! ;-) In the time he is "looking" for Wastelands, we have 4 Tops, 4 Brainstorms, 3 Ponders to look for a Crop Rotation, that shouldn't be too bad. If we manage to find it, great! He loses a land, sweet. If we can't, ok, one land is gone. That is not as bad as it sounds. There are several cantrips mentioned before plus 3 Expedition Maps to find a new one. IMO it's important to find a copy of Crop Rotation before you play Chasmn. If opponent tries to handle it, it could save your game (Wasteland on Chasmn, in response Crop for Vesuva, copying Chasmn). Same plan against Flickerwisp and so on

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/

I found having 4 bonfires to be pretty crap since they cost so much mana to cast and wasteland exists.

[Postman]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/

I found having 4 bonfires to be pretty crap since they cost so much mana to cast and wasteland exists.

I would try to tune your list like this: -2 needles, +1 Top, +1 Ponder. Perhaps you could even add a second Ponder for a bolt, but that will depend on your current meta, I guess.

[BVB09]

I guess they aren't played because of budget reasons, yes. Sure, they are extreme expensive AND there are only a few decks they fit in (e.g. Spiral Tide), but everybody who has access to them must play them in this deck. Just had to get my third one a few days ago...outch!

They are like a magnet for Fow, Decay and similar cards. And with good reasons: they can do mana-fixing in early part of the game, or speed you up in mid-game in an insane way^^ A few times I was lucky to place to of them on the board at the same time...almost unlimited mana Your opponent knows about the potential of this card, for sure. So he must answer it. If he isn't able to force it, there won't be a FoW in his hand, so cast your Titan/SnT and smile. If he forces the Candelabra...cast Titan/SnT! If he is really really lucky, he has another Fow + pitchable card, might happen. But in that rare case, you lost 2 cards, your opponent 4 cards. So the chances to reach the late-game are realy good now. The only suboptimal situation I can think of are 2 (or 3...) candelabras at the first seven. 2 can still be playable, depending on the rest.

I'm still testing with a single copy of Maze of Ith. With Candelabra on board, you have soooo much time against decks playing beasts like Delver, SFM + Batterskull before you have to hide behind the Chasmn...you could almost order pizza!

But then, don't you fear situations in which you depend on Chasm to resist and if they find a Wasteland you're dead? If the game goes long they would probably find 1-2 wastes and have some creatures...
Also Needle can be used with Liliana or enemy Karakas, I don't know if that's the best play, but those are cards that I fear.
I agree with Maze of Ith, sounds promising with Candelabras. And another card I would want to include would be Crucible.

[TimHarding]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/

I found having 4 bonfires to be pretty crap since they cost so much mana to cast and wasteland exists.

Do you think Ponder should also be played in the RUG version? It seems like a great card to have but the list is really tight.

Yes. The RUG list is tight, but +3 Ponder, -4 Bonfire, -4 Bolt, -3 Volc seems to be the best play here..

I'm still testing with a single copy of Maze of Ith. With Candelabra on board, you have soooo much time against decks playing beasts like Delver, SFM + Batterskull before you have to hide behind the Chasmn...you could almost order pizza!

The maze is actually pretty decent IMO, esp with the candelabra. However, this has exactly the same vulnerability to wasteland as chasm does. Both need to be (and should be) fortified by needles, if you need a true 'lock'. Further, now that TNN has replaced geist, the matchups where multiple maze activations would be boss have changed a lot, and are even slower. Since I do not see any space available for a non mana producing land drop, that cannot even handle swarm situations (or belcher), the cake easily goes to chasm on this one. I think the post player should ride the time repeal/needle/fow buys and continue winning, and keep the chasm as the emergency lever, rather than try to play any sort of confinement strategy. Loop glimmerposts if you're in that sort of mood lol.

I'm testing almost the same list, but 3 Pithing Needle instead of the Ponders and just 1 Candelabra. I really can't see how this deck could work without them.
I have cut them to test a few times and always miss them. You have also cut one Crop Rotation, which is your plan against Wasteland? Or is your list more focused on winning against Conbo/control?
Thanks

Months ago, I didn't like ponder. But now that I have moved to 3 islands MD, I gave it another shot. +1 Ponder, -1 Needle, resulting in 2 needles. Weary of just being a durdle deck, I only put in 1, and then tested the hell out of it. I like it. It gets the blue count into a more comfortable range, and offers some more manipulations for combo games. But, I will not cut the full set of needles for it. In this meta I wont go below 2, most likely with another in the board. Sneak and show is still a 'bad' matchup and I feel with the needles I decide the outcome of the game, rather than counter wars. Plus with the popularity of elves and DnT, needle is prime. Now, maybe a second ponder, with a crop rotation on the chopping block, but I feel the same when people suggest playing 3 stifle in tempo decks. Crop rotation in this deck plays like a card you want 4 of, do you know what I mean? You want to set up some early punishment, while having some relevance late game (like stifle), and shaving one kind of begins to defeat that purpose.

Those of you playing 3 crops, in a non-rug version, how is it going?

List:

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell

[SB]
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Cursed Totem

A lot like the "known to work" trend rock lee had posted a while back. I think this is best for the current meta: TNN.decs, Sneak&Show, Elves, DnT, Tempo.

Happy holidays!

[sublime love]

I have cut crops, in lists I used a wile back
I would not go below 3, but I did not see any huge draw back. I see 3 working when u are on soo many blue lands, it will be harder to get green.
PS. Needle is soo good

[TimHarding]

I have cut crops, in lists I used a wile back
I would not go below 3, but I did not see any huge draw back. I see 3 working when u are on soo many blue lands, it will be harder to get green.
PS. Needle is soo good

Thanks! I will try the three. I'm just weary of having less wasteland "counters" which seems to come up very often in the lines I pick. Are you still able to answer wastes regularly?

[sublime love]

@tim
I warp my list, based on what I expect the meta to be. At the event where i cut one crop, I knew the meta (from going there before, danvers, toys n things) there was lots of rug delver, sneak, omni, dredge, blade decks, miracles, bug, in that meta
I used the slot for my 4th needle
played vrs dredge, storm, rug, hivemind, miracles, id. In top 4, hivemind round 1 lost (drew bad/punt)
I did not miss it. most of those matches I would cut one crop (if I was on 4) for a sb card. hivemind is the only deck I would sb all my needles out. but I was sbing in fluster 4, 2fow, I don't Remember the rest of my board, I just knew they were the first in
Hope this helps

[That nice guy]

Hello everyone,

I've been doing some serious testing with friends and here are my observations. I run a U/G list with ponder that's 3 cards different from "Known to Work". The 3 cards I'm replacing for testing cards are either 1 Island, Map, Ponder, Bog.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth could be better, still good though.

Those of you playing 3 crops, in a non-rug version, how is it going?

3 Crops has been pretty great in the ponder list. You can sculpt early and get it if you need it/when you're ready to put a post in play after sculpting with a basic island. Casting Prime Time is hard.

This line of thought has made me wonder about B-Bog though. I lost to reanimator at my last 2 tournaments and it made me super sad because I know I'm supposed to win that match. Bog is huge when you need it but in the majority of my matches I hate to open with it. I still think it's worth a go.

I also think 3 islands are too much. I just run a fetch over the third.

Are the devastation tides a response to a Merfolk heavy meta? How often do you use them? I am undecided right now..

I tested the hell out of Devastation Tide as a 1-of. You can't use needles as a crutch when you run this. My conclusion was that it made me go, "meh" most of the time and 1 in 5 times it was amazing. Also, there were a lot of games when it could have been a Venser, Shaper Savant in the main (oddly enough).

I'm looking forward to testing Cavern of Souls next.


I KNOW THIS IS BAD, but in the interests of brainstorming, what do you guys think of a single Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker, or even a Phyrexian Metamorph. I haven't' tested any of the following.


Garruk Wildspeaker is like a bad candle that can protect you/fog your opponent. Another bad choice would be a Garruk Relentless. He only costs one green, and he can really slow the agro.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave was so close to being good. I'd rather run Explore since it will die soon anyway, and 2 for less than a fog seems bad.

Either Plainswalker seems bad :( but Wildspeaker seems like a ton of fun.

Phyrexian Metamorph seems neat. You can copy your own stuff like candle/needle, you can stall their agro, and if you're lucky you can get your very own batterskull/Tarm! And it's CMC is conveniently out of AD range. Still bad, I know.

[203995014]

Yes. The RUG list is tight, but +3 Ponder, -4 Bonfire, -4 Bolt, -3 Volc seems to be the best play here..

You're probably right. I was mostly staying away from UG since when I was new to legacy I tried using this deck and of course I failed miserably and thought it was a bad deck. Now I know I made a lot of stupid misplays back then but sort of "held a grudge" against it.

I KNOW THIS IS BAD, but in the interests of brainstorming, what do you guys think of a single Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker, or even a Phyrexian Metamorph. I haven't' tested any of the following.


Garruk Wildspeaker is like a bad candle that can protect you/fog your opponent. Another bad choice would be a Garruk Relentless. He only costs one green, and he can really slow the agro.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave was so close to being good. I'd rather run Explore since it will die soon anyway, and 2 for less than a fog seems bad.

Either Plainswalker seems bad :( but Wildspeaker seems like a ton of fun.

Phyrexian Metamorph seems neat. You can copy your own stuff like candle/needle, you can stall their agro, and if you're lucky you can get your very own batterskull/Tarm! And it's CMC is conveniently out of AD range. Still bad, I know.

Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

[Darkenslight]

You're probably right. I was mostly staying away from UG since when I was new to legacy I tried using this deck and of course I failed miserably and thought it was a bad deck. Now I know I made a lot of stupid misplays back then but sort of "held a grudge" against it.



Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

Having seen Kiora, I think it's actually better against SnT decks, and worse against Swarm strategies, though it does a good impression of locking down a Griselbrand. What's really interesting is that it can also hate on artifacts and enchantments, as well as planeswalkers and lands that deal damage.

[TimHarding]

Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

I was thinking exactly this with each of those cards. Metamorph's still intriguing - but the new legend rule really ruins it... I'd be surprised if it didnt make it in before.

The new planeswalker is pretty interesting though I wont write it off until i try it

[Rock Lee]

Kiora seems strictly worse than all the previous options. Only use i could see for her is an alternate win if you go fow main, dropping candelabras entirely.

[Mockingbird]

Having seen Kiora, I think it's actually better against SnT decks, and worse against Swarm strategies, though it does a good impression of locking down a Griselbrand. What's really interesting is that it can also hate on artifacts and enchantments, as well as planeswalkers and lands that deal damage.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a card that I don't expect to make much of a difference in Locus decks because she doesn't really protect herself that well against swarms. After a plus, she is still vulnerable to True-Name Nemesis and Lightning Bolt, her minus is... okay. I don't know if I'd rather go for Explore or Urban Evolution for a comparison, but she will either double explore or soak an attack/burn card and be a single Explore. That's worth testing... but I think I'd rather use the mana to Show and Tell Primeval Titan into play. I'm skeptical of her use in 12-Post, but I'm open to be wrong.

She seems more like a sideboard card that UGx could use (specifically BUG; I don't think RUG goes that high on a curve).

As a side note, while I'm skeptical of her use in Turbo Eldrazi, I'm going to find room for Kiora in my Progenitus Superfriends deck, because the antics that will ensue from her in an environment where she is one of twenty threats that survives Obliterate.

[Rock Lee]

Kiora, the Crashing Wave


As a side note, while I'm skeptical of her use in Turbo Eldrazi, I'm going to find room for Kiora in my Progenitus Superfriends deck, because the antics that will ensue from her in an environment where she is one of twenty threats that survives Obliterate.

Completely agree with this appraisal as to Kiora's role. Nail in the coffin is 2 loyalty. If it started with 4/5 and the ult was 8-9, then much more likely.

Only planeswalkers with 2 loyalty are Tibalt and NIssa and we both know how those two are regarded.