I do love the deck, but with your current build (protection suite specifically) I feel like your tempo and blue control mu's are bad. Discard fares so much better against blue in my combo experiences.
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Well, after playing both UBw and UB both extensively, I can say that actually the UB version has a much stronger game against tempo, you should try it. Reason is the mana denial of stifle and wasteland mean you're not going to be able to cast silence and combo same turn, or thoughtseize. In general, I find discard sub-par against brainstorm decks. With UB, your mana is a lot more solid, and you can combo off turn 1 and 2 with free protection. Tempo is actually a pretty easy match-up, their threats are too slow, and if they tap-out to play a delver or DRS turn 1 or 2, you've basically won.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I only run silence in my board. I guess your logic makes good sense but don't you miss therapy? I mean, I like knowing that I can discard things I draw. I like it's diverse nature. Also, no Emmy md? That's not something I can really get behind. I think he is necessary.
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Agree with both points here. Emrakul is generally a much more reliable and cheaper win condition, and having self-targeting discard makes the deck so much more consistent pre and post-combo.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Yeah, for sure, that's why I put the note at the bottom that I should have a Emrakul maindeck, but, the only reason I would want an Emrakul main is if my tendrils got discarded, so either I add the Emmy, or switch my kill to Lab Maniac.
As for discard vs counters, I guess it's your preference in playstyle, the reason that I play Tinfins over traditional Reanimator is for the speed, which is our best asset against gy hate games 2 and 3, and the free counters make the deck faster, in that you can you can combo with protection turn 0-1-2, and you slow your opponent down 1 turn with daze+force when they play their hate.
With UBw the most common scenario I get, is I have the ability to combo off turn 1 or 2, entomb in hand, with a discard spell or silence. If I go for it blindly, I can auto-lose, and the discard offers me no protection. If I play the discard, I lose the ability to entomb on their turn, and they might have gy hate and disruption in their hand. If I wait another turn to get white mana for silence (IF I even have the fetch or petal and left over mana to combo), then I lose 1 turn. With daze+force, I can drop a Underground Sea, pass the turn, see what they do on their turn, then make the decision counter what they play or combo on their endstep with protection.
Sorry, missed the tidbit about Emmy being in the main. I do like that option with the c-spells. I'm keeping your UB list in mind.
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No guts, no glory.
I want my protection to be aggressive, provide me with information, and overall flexible. Counterspells do only one thing, and I don't like having limited options for those slots.
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Ah, mulling down to five to get a T1 Grisel and a stacked win against elves is so fun. Feels really good to be playing this deck!
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Hello all,
Love the time and thought that went into this thread and have reviewed almost every other external piece of info I can find on Tin Fins(twitch and youtube duels w it). As I am relatively new to MTG I am finding it a bit hard to justify the lands until I am sure I will be playing for years to come(and can convince my significant other, more-so the latter). Because of this I was wondering how much of a hindrance it would be to make the lands with a playset of: City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Underground River (and debating replacing 1 of 2 LDV with 1 basic swamp), and if there would be any better replacements for those if deemed acceptable.
No. The amount of life loss that you will accrue with a mana base such as that will be detrimental to the list as a whole. It will absolutely neuter griselbrand, and thus the deck.
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I mean, you can build it however you want, and it just won't be optimal. It's not like it's unplayable or anything. The thing with a City/Gemstone manabase is really the cases where you aren't going off T1. So, you may want to just mulligan more aggressively if you don't have a fetch/dual manabase to try to get a T1 hand more often. You may also want to add more Chrome Moxes or Mox Diamonds in that case to attempt to speed up the deck to get your mana out faster. There is probably a decent enough build there, would just take some tweaking. :)
But if you decide to get the lands... get fetches first. They will make your Brainstorms much better, and hence not force you to try to go all in on T1.
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Thank you both for the comments/suggestions. Yea the brainstorm issue is biggest concern, second to possibly fizzling more often (as little of a difference it makes I have to assume every land removed makes for better draws off GB). Will play with the build and look into the mox diamonds (currently 2 chrome mox) and will report back with how well/bad it does. Where I'm at now though it looks like I'll have to slowly upgrade it w/ this build, then fetch lands & some watery grave's, then finally the correct land base.
If you are going to play sub-par lands, I would suggest darkslick shores first. I'm not sure after that about the next best choice for the lands but you are almost always sure to be within its restriction.
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1) Ask yourself if you're playing Magic to win tournaments or to play with friends. Both are fine, but I have to assume the goal of the people on this forum is winning. Otherwise, there's basically no point.
2) You're thinking about the buy-in the wrong way. Legacy cards are liquid and appreciating assets. In the 3 years I've been playing Legacy, my Seas and Deltas have doubled in value.
3) There is a budget/casual subforum on this site.
In other news, I played TinFins in some local tournaments. Wasn't especially thrilled with the Show and Tell package (although small sample size, etc). It was ok in the matches I boarded it in to sidestep overwhelming hate (like Elves), but in the match I played against danyul, he simply Needled Griselbrand and raced. Cutting the Probes didn't hurt as much as I thought it would, but having 4 Griselbrand main kinda sucked. The deck's still a hell of a lot of fun to play and I'd like to try Wess's build out sometime, but I think I'll be putting it aside again for now.
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What is your list? I have never and will never play 4 griselbrand in this deck. It's a waste of slots and a bad topdeck.
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If you're boarding into Show and Tell, then you want 4 Griselbrands. Based on some fun GP experience with that plan (GP Denver in particular), I can't say I would advocate that strategy, but it certainly could be viable.
I still haven't tested out Snapcasters yet (sorry bout that! sometime, hopefully... holiday stuff has been kicking my ass) to buy back entombs... But if I were on a more "standard" list, I think I would likely be playing 3 Griselbrands main to reduce dependence on Entomb.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Along the lines of Snapcaster, I'm wondering if it might be worth testing a single/2-of Intuition again. Same cmc, and while it has less utility, it does have the added benefit of being able to bin multiple Grizzlebees at instant speed, which could potentially be useful against an active Deathrite. It also tutors, which can be nice.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I think doing so would warrant another land (possibly to 15, and most certainly a Basic Island). I can imagine cutting both LDV and a Gitaxian Probe to fit these in, and possibly another Probe for the 3rd Griselbrand?
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I already run 3 Griselbrand, but I'm on 13 land/2 Mox. I'll probably goldfish some games with Intuition in the place of one LDV and see if the casting cost is really an issue, or if it makes any impact at all.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
But its soooooo slooooow. If it costs 3 I think it would be better if you can cast it off a rit. I understand turn 2 rit, disrupt w discard and then intuition, but it seems to slow. Snapcaster sidesteps the need of mana number 3 because of eot trix.
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