yeah, me too, but there are a lot of ppl in this thread who think we don't need LED anymore, and are adding firestorm to their main decks.Originally Posted by Que
I need to see this for myself, as I will be in a small tour tomorrow, this tour is not on my local store so I'm not meta calling, but I think I will fail hard.
whats up??
I was searching for some decklist and noticed that some people runs leyline of the void in side. Why?? Mirror???
Thx!
Reanimator, Hermit Druid and maybe ANT.whats up??
I was searching for some decklist and noticed that some people runs leyline of the void in side. Why?? Mirror???
Thx!
As far as LED vs Firestorm MD I could honestly go either way, I just think given how much we SB out LED vs aggro-control for Firestorm that people should take MD Firestorm more seriously if they can do anything more constructive with the SB space.
But does it worth?
Im asking because once upon a time i was a great dredge player. Indeed. Times were other then. There was no shaman, no rip, no ooze....i was easier. Now my love is coming back and wanna ride the wave again.
This is my decklist for insults if you wish with some explanations:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor (problably 3 tear // wear + iona)
SB: 4 Unmask
FS: for shaman and ooze maily
Unmask: for decks that mainly side in extraction effects (control) and for combo MU (depending on the case)
The other comes alone....maybe we can discuss the proportion but i think one must have destruction effects in case.
I took 13 lands and 12 dredgers for the first time. Nowadays i think that we have to see at least one land in the opening to have a chance.
THx!!
GC.
I actually have no issues with your main deck. I just prefer flayer over flame kin but that's a play style preference. If anything I would take out claims and chain of vapor in your sideboard for ancient grudge wispmare and or ingot chewer. I also run Elesh and Iona in my side as hard locks against tribal and mono color decks. Outside of that I think ur main deck list very playable and competitive. No putrid imp is a lil odd tho
I think Unmask and Firestorm are mandatory SB cards if for no other reason Unmask deals with Rest in Peace and Firestorm deals with Deathrite Shaman, the rest of the board should be either removal for odd hate cards like Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage that you can't Unmask or Cabal Therapy before they resolve or additional threats to diversify vs Surgical Extraction.
I don't think cutting below 3 Putrid Imp before a singleton of Ichorid, Golgari Thug or Breakthrough is a good idea and that people constantly overrate Dread Return and combo targets for additional lands - if you're playing Lion's Eye Diamond that's combo enough - I typically only SB in Dread Return and combo targets whenever I SB out Lion's Eye Diamond.
I'm also starting to form the opinion that SB Artifact/Enchantment removal is a crutch provided the metagame is absent of Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage, those cards are completely worthless when drawn in the absence of hate compared to Unmask or Firestorm and the fact that they're useless vs Relic of Progenitus or the odd Tormod's Crypt really tilts me. Cards like the 4th Ichorid, 4th Putrid Imp, X Ashen Ghouls or even Tireless Tribes are a lot better in the SB than people give them credit for because they allow you to SB out LED and have a higher and more diverse number of business spells. Just SBing in like 3 Tireless Tribe and 1 Breakthrough vs RUG for LED is pretty amazing because you get to play around Spell Pierce and a Surgical Extraction no longer ends your game automatically.
Leyline of the Void is worth it in the sense that if you think the metagame is right for a graveyard deck, other people will also think the same thing and the only way you can beat Reanimator/Hermit Druid and the mirror consistently is to hate it directly. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine, I was just playing around with different options.
That's why I preffer Chain of vapor, not only it compliment our therapys, and can be used against any kind of non land permanent, hate or non hate, and it can be cast with any of our lands
And I got back for the tour (got 2nd place), firestorm was OK main deck, but what really shined today was using 15 lands, it gave my so many broken starts and double therapys ( it would be even more broken with some LEDs) and I only had to mulligan 3 times in the entire tour ( and none costed me any game), I think I will cut a putrid imp for the third tarnished citadel
EDIT: I dunno, but how hard is it to put 4 LOTV in our sideboards? the card can't be hardcasted and we need to mull a lot to find our engine pieces (land, outlet, dredger and draw), I get that the card protects our bridges from cheap tricks like bolting their own creatures, and locks out the mirror and some storm variations, I will test to find it out
I don't even think you can play the deck with less than 15 land, even with Lion's Eye Diamond, if you want to cast your spells consistently. What people don't rememver, or never understood, is that the 12 land variant was played pre Deathrite Shaman and the Draw, Discard, Dredge strategy with 4 Ichorid was still viable. Even then, we SBed 3 Tarnished Citadels in order to be able to cast our spells consistently post-board because Daze, Wasteland and Thorn of Amethyst were a thing.
If I had to play the deck regardless of the meta, something like;
MD
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
SB
4 Unmask
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Seems like the most logical place to start because you rely on speed game one, a board sweeper vs Deathrite Shaman game 2, Unmask vs Rest in Peace game 2 etc. and I'm starting to think that even Unmask is better than diversify your kill conditions post-board because it's better to deal with Surgical Extraction directly.
Maybe Chain of Vapor is the way to go vs Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, really depends on whether or not you're playing against the kind of guy who holds onto Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus on his 1st turn in order to make you think he doesn't have it and then plays and activates it immediately after you've invested your resources into your graveyard or the guy who doesn't play mind games and just rushes it out there so you can destroy it immediately.
I really, really hate cutting any Putrid Imps, that card is so incredibly important post-board if you want to have any outlets to enable your draw spells instead of having to use your draw spells as outlets. Maybe it's right to play the 4th Breakthrough over the 4th Putrid Imp tho', I really don't know what's better for the deck.
Last edited by Final Fortune; 01-07-2014 at 02:04 AM.
I used to think just like you, I have tested the deck used no putrid imps and it just sucks, but he's not all THAT needed, decks using 0 DR shaman we can just DDD or fake a slow start, and decks with DR shaman must start with one (and we can chain of vapor or firestorm it), I prefer to cut a putrid imp than cuting a golgari thug for example
You're probably right, the 4th Putrid Imp over the 4th Golgari Thug is probably a bad idea mathematically for the deck. Considering all of the draw spells, Lion's Eye Diamond and discard step can serve that function it's probably best to cut him down to three 3 - especially with Relic of Progenitus being a rarity these days.
What do you think of the 4th Breakthrough over the 4th Thug? MD I think it'd be objectively stronger, but it's another card you have to SB out in certain match ups and that could be problematic.
It could work, but I still like the 4th thug more, dredging 4 times using breaktrough is nice but we relly on chain dredging to do that, and it can make a difference in the end of a big tour, so I guess I will be keeping the 4th thug, not to mention, but I see your point.
When you say flayer you mean: `Flayer of the hatebound¿?
What would you cut to make place for PImp? the 4th thug, 1 ichorid and¿?
I would cut 1 ichorid, 4th thug, 1 faithless looting, 1 breakthroug if you want the full four pimps. You could also get by on 3 and leave either the fourth faithless or fourth breakthrough main. My current list only runs two breakthrough main as i'm running street wraith to battle deathrite shaman, but you shouldn't need more then 3 breakthrough's game one i think... most people would opt for the fourth faithless looting but i don't like drawing it with hands that only have colisseum as my land...
and yes i meant flayer of the hatebound haha
My main point of deliberation is that while having a 4th Thug allows you to keep X additional hands, having a 4th Breakthrough allows you to gamble for the lone Dredger and chain Dredgers. Meh, that's probably horrific variance tho', so yeah I'm going to update my list with 3 Imps and 4 Thugs and stop advocating otherwise.
Post-board I guess you have to hope 3 Putrid Imp, 3 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study, 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Cabal Therapy and possibly your discard step are enough discard outlets for when you have to SB in Nature's Claim on the draw.
don't worry, math is on our side, the problem is daze+ wasteland when trying to go for the anti hate plan.
it usually involves crazy DDD stuff and blind therapys, or just oppening with multiple lands
Any thoughts on my build would be greatly appreciated, just like cid I am a returning player.
Lands: 12
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Critters: 24
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
Spells: 24
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Side: 15
4 Firestorm
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
Reasons as follows: We win our game 1 most of the time anyway, dread return into iona or flamekin only helps us in our combo matchups. Flamekin and Iona are both not needed IMO because they both achieve the same thing but in a different way. Iona hoses their combo colors, where as flamekin helps us race them. The side I am not sure about as much but I feel having solid outs to everything is good going into an unknown meta. Unmask is good on the play, but if we win our game 1 we are not going to be on the play and I would rather have more anti-hate to adjust accordingly.
Last edited by helghast101; 01-13-2014 at 09:27 PM.
The Quodlazer-List is solid (I would add a Land and a 1-off DR for 1 Ichorid and 1 Breakthrough, but that is personal preference), but you will definitely need more Lands in your Board to support your Antihate. With 8 coloured sources you will have serious trouble to cast your precious Claims and Firestorms consistently through all the Dazes, Pierces and Wastelands. I would highly recommend 14-15 Lands in your 75 to, you know, cast some spells.
What to drop for more lands you think? -1vapor-1claim for 2 citadel or?
I don't think you need both Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor, I would drop the Claims for lands in your case.
I stop playing magic for a little while and you guys have resorted to sideboarding Unmasks and taking LEDs out against RuG?!?! This thread looks like the aftermath of a doomsday movie.
Don't take LED out when playing against Rug. They run a lot of taxing counters, let that sink in for a second.
LED costs zero and is an additional discard outlet while paying for daze and spell pierce to resolve more important spells like Care Study & Breakthrough.
Also, Unmask is awful. It is one of those cards that are good on paper but not in reality. The deck mulls enough as is. To have a hand that can properly abuse Unmask it would have to look like this:
Land+Dredger+Discard Outlet+Draw Spell+Unmask+Xtra Black Card. Unmask will effectively suck in hands with less than six cards. I will concede that Unmask is good when you get it in a playable hand; the only problem is getting Unmask in a playable hand.
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