Chinese fakes

[Dice_Box]

[luckme10]

But the big problem with that analogy is that the producers still sell tickets for shows to people who want to buy them. For this analogy to work, what would have to happen is that the producers (or whoever are the ones selling tickets) could be making tickets to sell, but they refuse to even though there's still plenty of room (i.e. they're not sold out). So if you want to buy a ticket to a show, you have to find someone who already has a ticket and try to get it from them.

The most relevant analogy I can think of is a company that owns the copyright to a TV series but, after the show went off the air, have refused to provide any actual way to still watch it (e.g. no DVD release, no iTunes download, nothing on Hulu, etc.) despite there being strong demand for it (i.e. we're not talking about some obscure show from 20 years ago or a series that bombed horribly and was canceled after 2 episodes; we're talking about a series that is actually really popular and would sell well if released somehow).

Ever take a look at the star trek dvd listings on ebay? You can't find a legitimate copy if your life depended on it. Yeah, that's gonna be magic.

[Lord Seth]

Ever take a look at the star trek dvd listings on ebay? You can't find a legitimate copy if your life depended on it. Yeah, that's gonna be magic.

That says a lot more about eBay than about Star Trek, though.

[Dice_Box]

You can bitch about Ebay all you like, but at the end of the day they are just a marketplace and it's the people that list that set prices and sell fakes.

[JBlaze]

I hope you are not trying to discourage people from playing Legacy based on their financial status or age.

Yeah I do want to discourage them if they are planning on buying counterfeit cards from China to do it.

[Dice_Box]

Given this some thought, have read what I can find and I think I have pinned down my opinion on this. My emotions based on this event, amusement. If not for the change of frame, this may have stayed quite a bit longer. But not forever. Anyway:

Wizards.
I do not blame them for the list. They made it when they where young and stupid and now it's just something that they hate. But they can not get away from it. They closed in 09 the last loophole and to me that meant they made their bed. They can lay in it now. There is a market for these cards, they can tap it, they have chosen not to. Whatever the reason that's a choice they made, it's effects they will feel.

The local store.
It's going to hurt them, but they are a link in the chain of what is wrong in this game. M20 that they get for 75 bucks. (In Australia at lest.) then it's sold off for 220? They are as much a part of the problem, they just risk more of the fallout.

SCG.
Next person to tell me SCG is in trouble over this I will laugh at. They will weather this better than anyone else. While the market may crash, they fucking deserve it. They single handedly drive up prices as they see fit. Let them take a hit here, they are safe elsewhere.

SCG has the circuit, know what bands did when CD's stopped being profitable? They went on tour. SCG has the biggest Mtg gig in town. More cheep cards equals more players. More players equals more people at a tournament. More people equals money for SCG. Like it or not, they have what they need in their lap.

While I can not say I am happy that this is going to happen, the players lost control of the secondary market long ago. Stores set the prices, we have to deal with it. Another option just offers a new supply to fit demand. Yes the price will drop, but it's an artificial high anyway made by many seeking to make a profit. This is not a stock market it's a game, Fuck those that treat cards like shares, let's game.

[r3dd09]

My comment about people would play legacy if it was cheaper. This is the number one go to excuse for them not playing the format yet, when provided, I bet they don't become active in legacy like they say they would.

Most say it to get others off their back. yeah, there are a few that actually mean it. They're the ones proxying and playing when we provide decks.

People will still make excuses even if staples become cheap to acquire. I've seen it all first hand with majority of my locals.

[ESG]

I'm with dontbiteitholmes: There are a lot of seriously warped attitudes in this community. If you want something -- whether it's a mountain bike, or a computer, or a piece of power, or a dual land -- but you can't afford it, you save for it. The purchase gains additional meaning because you worked for something; you didn't just snap your fingers and watch it appear. Some people act like they're entitled to cheap duals or a Tier 1 Legacy deck just because they're interested in the format. That's not how it works.

We all came to Magic at different times, but we all came in with nothing. Everybody started at zero and worked their way up from that first starter deck or booster pack. I certainly didn't think I was owed Moxes -- or, shoot, a Force of Nature -- when I started playing. I built up a collection from zero, just like kids can do today. Anyone, whether it's an FNM grinder, a drafter, or a kitchen table player, can play Legacy. There are numerous guides and tips on how to get into the format, many written on these boards. There are discussions on how to turn your Standard stuff into Legacy staples. There is advice on how to trade, and so on. I wish I had had HALF as many resources when I started. I'm sure it would have springboarded me into playing competitively years earlier. The fact remains that almost anyone can get into Legacy with some time and effort, but not everyone can get in IMMEDIATELY, just as when we were kids we couldn't immediately get that computer or that mountain bike.

Counterfeiting is the equivalent of a smash-and-grab. You want a mountain bike? SMASH!! You got a mountain bike!! And SCREW the store owner, whoever he is!! Counterfeiting is partially a moral issue. You are effectively stealing the money from someone else: your LGS, Internet retailers, other players. Everyone is connected -- it's one big web of people -- which is why this "I deserve it" attitude is so toxic. If you didn't work for it, you don't deserve it. If you and a bunch of others order fake duals and Forces and Jaces and Tarmogoyfs, you get to play Legacy right away, but you will irreparably damage the market. The stability of the market is a major reason why Legacy is widely played. If that stability wasn't there, Star City could not run the Open Series, and that trickles down to small stores.

Stores run Legacy tournaments -- or any other tournament -- largely to sell inventory. For those of you begrudging stores their markup on boxes or singles, I don't have a clue as to what you think stores are supposed to do to make money. If they bought and sold everything at the same price, they would never survive. Businesses pay rent and other expenses before they even make it into the black, let alone make a decent living. Store owners are people too! Do you expect when you go to a restaurant that you get a steak for $4? Do you expect when you go to the mall that you should be able to buy a hat or a shirt or a suit at the price it cost to make it? Markups are one of the main reasons why these stores are in business. It's why you can have a hamburger without having to GO OUT THERE AND BUTCHER THE COW YOURSELF. You should be thankful that life is so easy.

The Magic card market -- all our game stores, Star City, eBay prices, trading between players -- is based on trust. You're paying $100 because that Bayou is real. When you can't tell if it's real or not, that's where trust crumbles. When stores can't buy collections online and players can't trade with each other in a timely manner, things grind to a halt. Stores need to be able to make money in order to stay in business. Without stores, there's no place to play, outside of maybe your house, or your friends' houses, or a community center that you could rent out. Counterfeiting could legitimately kill Magic due to a disintegration of trust and for many reasons espoused earlier in this thread, and that would hurt everyone. Please do what's right and don't buy counterfeit cards. Realize that giving your business to counterfeiters ultimately hurts everyone who plays Magic. This is a serious issue.

[Plague Sliver]

...and I feel fine?

[Dice_Box]

If I want a bike I will pay for it at a store that has many makes, brands and prices. If I want to play magic I have no such options. I have one brand, all the shops sell them at roughly the same price and at will increase that price. It's a bubble that has to burst. Supply meets demand. We all want it, then let Wizards print it. If they can't or won't, let another brand step in.

To be honest, I am sick of my friends cashing out and watching legacy slowly die. This bull shit can be ovoided. It only takes a backbone from Wizards, some honest pricing from stores and online retailers. If they don't want to do that, then let them reap what they sow.

I am not going to go out of my way to buy these, but I am happy that the bubble will burst and we might actually see some kind reasonable discourse from all involved. Those using the game as a stock market, those ripping players new ass holes, this was a long time coming. If there was any other way I would embrace it but there is not. So if this is it, if this is the way to make this game a GAME again and not a stock exchange, then so be it.

It might not be right, but it's all we got to put a stop to massive monopolistic issues that Plague this game.

[lavafrogg]

I think something that is more scary than the Chinese fakes coking out is the number of fakes that we know nothing about that are circulating the planet as we speak. I worked at a print shop for several years and could copy pretty much anything that I wanted to; to a point where you had to stop and look to tell the difference. I never tried to copy magic cards but there was nothing stopping me from making something that, when in sleeves, was not distinguishable from the real thing.

I know several people that have played in SCG Opens with "proxies" that they made or bought from other friends. This is just what I know about. Imagine if a store like Starcitygames.com decided that they wanted to make some easy money and started mixing in authentic looking fakes with real cards. Buy 4 tarmogoyfs and get 3 real 1 fake…they make $100 easy. They also increase the number of legacy cards in circulation so it is win-win for them. As long as they don't flood the market with fakes they would be able to manipulate supply and demand at their own discretion. Now that is a scary thought.

[Dice_Box]

...and I feel fine?

"And I am amused" was not an option. Plus, it's really how I feel about it. This is a changing point, I am fine with that. It's not the way I would have liked to see the game change, but change all the same.



"Closing time, every new beginning starts with some other beginnings end."

[luckme10]

Look, I encourage everyone who has invested a hefty sum of money in this game to bail out now. If you do it now, you'll still be able to do well. As for a market based on trust, you are essentially entrusting a corporation to maintain its monopolistic power, does anyone else see the irony in this?

There is no FTC overseeing the actions in the collectible commodities market. There are no safe nets to protect your purchases.
It's the difficulty to instantly turn these cards without some effort that makes people more hesitant to sell in times likes these.

This atmosphere is especially conducive to speculators. A few excessive buys here, and you can simulate churning, get a tip on a card that hasn't been released, or a potential banning, and decide to buy cards that go well with it before it becomes public knowledge? Insider trading. Write a few articles and buy a large bulk of cards to support your advice on the side... No one will be the wiser... The market in these industries is small enough that a single person can catalysis the speculative boom with several thousands dollars and a potential staple card. Is anyone taking a look at genesis wave, birthing pod, or stoneforge mystic these days? You want to know what happened to the genesis waves? This guy has them:


This isn't a friendly game... Whatever it may have been before the internet, it's different now. Prices rise and fall on a whim... it's cutthroat, perhaps it's always been, and we're only diluting ourselves to think otherwise. Actually it's worse than cutthroat, it preys on people's sentimental attachments more so than most securities I've witnessed. And believe me I'm in an industry that deals with some pretty volatile markets. So if you have time to complain and be sad about this, get out now while you still can. You can hand your cards over to the people waiting for the backlash to reflect the legacy fire-sale.

[ESG]

If I want a bike I will pay for it at a store that has many makes, brands and prices. If I want to play magic I have no such options. I have one brand, all the shops sell them at roughly the same price and at will increase that price.

And what if you deem all the bikes too expensive? What then? It's not the bike makers' fault that you decided you weren't up for $800 or whatever a bike cost. You choose what you want to buy, whether you're buying a bike or whether you're buying singles for a deck. Everybody has a budget. If you can't afford it now, you save for later. You act like you are entitled to one of everything. This is part of the problem.

We all want it, then let Wizards print it. If they can't or won't, let another brand step in.

Wizards can't break the Reserved List, and the reasons have been explained a million times. Let it go. Counterfeiters are not a freaking BRAND. Counterfeiting is not some solution to what you perceive is a problem.

To be honest, I am sick of my friends cashing out and watching legacy slowly die. This bull shit can be ovoided. It only takes a backbone from Wizards, some honest pricing from stores and online retailers. If they don't want to do that, then let them reap what they sow.

If your friends are selling their cards, that's their choice. Legacy is thriving, not dying, which is why the cards increased in value. As far as "honest pricing," this is some skewed perception. Stores and online retailers charge what they can, whether or not you think that is fair. There is no "fair" price in a vacuum. A $60 Voice of Resurgence could be considered fair to someone and unfair to someone else (see: eBay). When people don't buy at those prices, retailers lower the prices. You have plenty of choices of where to shop.

I am not going to go out of my way to buy these, but I am happy that the bubble will burst and we might actually see some kind reasonable discourse from all involved. Those using the game as a stock market, those ripping players new ass holes, this was a long time coming. If there was any other way I would embrace it but there is not. So if this is it, if this is the way to make this game a GAME again and not a stock exchange, then so be it.

I don't welcome the investing side of the secondary market, but I accept it, as you should. It's part of the reason Legacy is widely played. People come in droves to duel-for-duals tournaments because the lands are worth a lot of money. You are being incredibly shortsighted about the effect that near-perfect fakes can have on the Magic market. If they aren't stopped, things won't end well for anyone.

[JBlaze]

Well was going to go point by point refute some of Dice_Box post but ESG beat me to it.

Instead I will post this little snippet i found in an article called THE CREATION OF MAGIC by some dude Named RICHARD GARFIELD. I don't remember exactly what his part was in making Magic. I think he might have been the janitor or something anyway dude seems pretty smart check out what he has to say.

The Magic Marketplace

Another thing I realized in the second year of playtesting really surprised me. Magic turned out to be one of the best economic simulations I had ever seen. We had a free-market economy and all of the ingredients for interesting dynamics. People valued different cards in different ways—sometimes because they simply weren't evaluating accurately, but much more often because the cards really have different value to different players. For example, the value of a powerful green spell was lower for a person who specializes in black and red magic than for one who was building a deck that was primarily green. This gives a lot of opportunity for arbitrage. I would frequently find cards that one group of players weren't using but another group were treating like chunks of gold. If I was fast enough, I could altruistically benefit both parties and only have to suffer a little profit in the process.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wizards knew there was a large and growing demand for legacy cards and chose not to do a thing about it. Now its time to pay the devil its due.

Go run along now the grown folks are trying to have a conversation.

I pretty much have lost all long term confidence in the game after hearing about 1000 shitty comments similar to the one above from bitter have-nots. I never knew so many people had a deep seated hatred of people like me just for owning some cards, but if the MTG scene is this toxic I don't see holograms solving the problem.

Dude, chill down. Don't change this into you vs. the world, Lt. Quattro was just describing the reality and for what's worth, that comment got it 100% precisely. I would use the same words to depict what have happened, so will I be the next one you'll attack?

This isn't only the fault of the counterfeiters, they are simply acting on incentives. Notice that up until a couple years ago this was not even an issue outside of special cases like power because we didnt have things like 150$ staples. This was a problem that Wizards needed to address, which they didnt.

Fixed.

I also wish that the Magic cards are cheaper. I remember the times when a reasonable Type II deck was in USD 50 range. What happened in this game is amazing (for good and for bad), and ppl outside of the community can't understand it. WotC made a possible mistake with RL and such, and now when the prices are sky-high, the product attracts falsificators. As much as I want the prices to plummet, I never wanted it this way, alas THIS IS REALITY AND YOU BETTER WAKE UP INTO IT. I'm not attacking anybody, I'm not jealous of anybody's collection, in fact I don't really care of them, I'm just stating the facts, like them or not.

My only concern is my concern - so yeah, I might be cashing out (though I wil keep one deck just for the fun of occasional tournament), and I still blame WotC for letting things go that far; I don't care if they were forced to it, or if it happened beasue of their stupidity, but now when the situation is where it went, it doesn't help to be angry on whole world.

Magic: the Card Board Game is the future.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Look, adult hobbies are expensive. Almost everything worth doing is expensive. I got into riding bikes this summer and easily spend $1000 on that. I have easily put $2000 into skimboards, bodyboards, wetsuits, and other equipment from living at the beach for a decade. Snowboarding is like $50 a lift ticket + hundreds to thousands in gear. Movies cost $10 a pop in theaters. Skydiving is $50+ a drop. Taking girls on dates is expensive (well depends how you play it but you get the point). I know many people who have bought $1000 worth of video games over the past 5 years easily. Many have dropped hundreds to thousands on WoW or LoL. I can't seem to leave the bar without my wallet being $30-50 lighter.

Every adult hobby is expensive, the difference with Magic was I could buy into a Legacy deck @ $1500 and years later when I'm done with it there was some confidence I could turn around and sell it and a fair percentage of my money back or more. There is very few hobbies where that's a thing. You think my used skimboard is worth the $400 I paid for it now 3 years later, you must be smoking crystal I might get $75-100 if I'm lucky. People get pissy because they don't want to drop money to get into Legacy but will happily throw money away elsewhere (cough Standard) because they are short sighted. In the long run over the past many years Legacy has been the LEAST EXPENSIVE HOBBY on the planet because the cards have mostly gone up or stayed the same. I'd like to see any hobby you do for 5 years and be able to cash out anywhere near the money you put in. Still people complain all the time like they don't fucking drop stacks on Standard and buy every video game on Steam. People just want it all for nothing and if they can justify getting it like that they pounce all over it. I would've been fine personally if my collection took a hit and it actually increased the health of the format. I bought the cards to play the game, as they say, and it's whatever. This will kill the format though. If there is no confidence you can sell out of the game it's going to absolutely kill legitimate Legacy and all that will be left is people who don't care because all their shit is bootleg anyways.

The way some people are foaming at the mouths like hungry jackals over this is embarrassing. I wonder if these people buy bikes that are priced "too good to be true" on craigslist knowing they are stolen, to backpack on earlier analogies. "I mean fuck it the bike's already been stolen, can't unsteal it. Owner probably should have locked it up better. It's not hurting the store anyways, they already sold the bike and the guy who lost his will buy another one." That's pretty much the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people and to be honest that's what's undermining my confidence in the game MUCH MORE than any amount of counterfeits could if people were actively against them. Lots of entitled kids wanting something for nothing and expecting everyone else to keep buying from legitimate suppliers to pick up the slack while at the same time they undermine the concept of buying from legitimate suppliers. Yeah, that's going to work out great. It's a shame too, I made a decision recently that I was going to keep my cards even though I could use the money elsewhere. It's taken me since middle school (Revised) to build up to finally owning a Power 9 set and it felt like quite the accomplishment, but now I see it more as a liability with the toxic mentality of the average player I just don't see this game existing in a healthy state 5-10 years from now like I used to.

[Dice_Box]

Since I am on my phone, I can not quote you and then put in my points separately. So I hope you will forgive me for just numbering each point.

1) the bike comment.
I can pick a 400 dollar bike and have just as much fun on it. I can play on my cheaper bike and keep up with my friends. We can all have a good time on our bikes without anyone feeling left out or left behind. Also a 800 dollar bike will cost more to make, more to design and manufacture. Cards cost the same regardless. The price difference is artificial. As for saving. I do, that's why I am building a lands deck over the course of a year. So I can save.

2) the list.
They can break the list, this may push them to do so. It's an artificially created issue. Like political morons making promises then having to break them later because they see the climate in office was not as favourable as it first appeared and they don't have limitless funds. As for the brand, you could almost call these guys the "Generic" brand. Cheap, not always effective, but an option non the less.

3) the vacuum.
You hit the nail on the head. No such thing as fair in a vacuum. This balances out the power, gives options to new players and old alike. Fuck the vacuum, someone else sucked all of the oxygen out of the room, time they delt with a mess of their own making.

4) Prizes.
Games will be played regardless, but where I live play for duals never happens. So I can not commonent on this. I have not been to any such event.

As for me being short sighted. Using the word IF in your sentance is short sighted. This WILL happen. This can do a lot of good. I for one would welcome a format where skill alone and not price was the only thing that separated all the players at the end of the day.

[warai]

My comment about people would play legacy if it was cheaper. This is the number one go to excuse for them not playing the format yet, when provided, I bet they don't become active in legacy like they say they would.

Most say it to get others off their back. yeah, there are a few that actually mean it. They're the ones proxying and playing when we provide decks.

People will still make excuses even if staples become cheap to acquire. I've seen it all first hand with majority of my locals.

I'm actually quite sick of the argument legacy is to expensive to play. Just get a job, don't go out every weekend,
go to less restaurants and save money.

This is a COLLECTIBLE card game which mean there is LIMITED amounts of each card.

If WotC can't assure their clients that the product circulating is the REAL deal then they will go out of business eventually because no one is going to pay 30 dollars for a Voice of Resurgence when they can get 10 for less than 5 dollars - so no more Dragon's Maze boosters sold.

[JBlaze]

Dice_Box
As for me being short sighted. Using the word IF in your sentance is short sighted. This WILL happen. This can do a lot of good. I for one would welcome a format where skill alone and not price was the only thing that separated all the players at the end of the day.

If you want to play a format where skill is the only thing that matters I suggest chess. A game played with a randomized deck of cards will never be 100% skill based. Magic is a collectable card game one of the core ideas is that people have to you know collect the cards