Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I don't have time to participate in discussion at the moment, but this is the truth. The gains to running Autumn's Veil over Silence are few. I think the 4 Cabal Therapy/3 Silence package is the best disruption option at the moment.
Simplify seems absolutely terrible, what can it do besides kill a leyline for 3 mana?
I'm sure the reason for this card was that it can stay in the board and him still having four outs against Leyline without having to board in permanent-solutions for pure speculation if his opponent is running Leyline or not.
Not an option for me personally. Freedom of choice ^^
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Seriously, how many corner cases do you expect to need Silence for as opposed to how many SB cards do you need on color Green mana for? I don't know if you play ANT, but ANT plays an all discard page MD and an all green disruption suite SB (Xantid Swarm and Autumn's Veil) and that deck is a DTB while TES is not. If ANT can be a DTB with a Tropical Island and Autumn's Veil in its SB than I see no reason why TES can't follow suit with the same strategy if we want to play a Silence effect and Carpet of Flowers post-board vs RUG.
As far as those corner cases are concerned
1) Silence doesn't stop Clique either, they should Clique in response to shuffle away your tutor anyway
2) Silence only protects Brainstorm and Ponder on the combo turn, and Brainstorm and Ponder are rarely played before Silence because they're used to assemble the combo prior to the combo turn and thus are vulnerable to Red Elemental Blast regardless
3) You can still play around Lightning Bolt, the only difference is that you can't dig as deep with Ad Nauseam
4) Stifle on Storm triggers is a legitimate problem if you're playing against RUG game 2 and you're planning on using Empty the Warrens, personally I don't plan on using Empty the Warrens because I A) SB out Cabal Therapy game 2 and B) expect Rough/Tumble and thus C) SB out Empty the Warrens
5) I don't see players SB in Surgical Extraction against us very often, U/W decks are playing Rest in Peace first, RUG decks are playing Grafdigger's Cage second, BUG decks are playing Nihil Spellbomb third and if the opponent wants to SB in a card that does practically nothing vs this deck otherwise they must be desperately lacking SB hate vs Storm to replace Swords to Plowshares with in a Snapcaster Mage deck. Even if Past in Flames is a guaraunteed win, having resolved an Autumn's Veil then Diminishing Returns is a probable win if you know they're playing Surgical Extraction against you.
@SScout
I'm suggesting a complete overhaul of the MD disruption suite, MD manabase and SB, if you fail to take any one of those factors into context and just compare Silence to Autumn's Veil in a vacuum then ofcourse Silence is better.
I'm not arguing that Silence isn't better than Autumn's Veil, I'm arguing that if we're Mding Silence and SBing Tropical Island, Xantid Swarms and Carpet of Flowers then we could get greater value out of SBing Autumn's Veil, replacing Silence's role in the MD post-board, boarding in Autumn's Veil in order to offset Cabal Therapy's weakness to distributed hate cards post-board and then gaining EV as a result of Autumn's Veil and Carpet of Flowers sharring the same Dual Land. So yes Autumn's Veil is worse than Xantid Swarm vs Show&Tell, yes Autumn's Veil is worse than Silence vs RUG but is it so significantly worse vs both match ups that it isn't worth 4 additional mana sources that can cast it compared to Silence, being the same color as Carpet of Flowers and having 7 discard effects MD to remove Pyroblast from the SB entirely? Is Leyline of Sanctity so prevalent that we need to have all of our disruption be immune to it, and if all of our disruption is immune to it then should the opponent ever SB it in?
I get people want to play Silence and Xantid Swarms and Pyroblasts as the strongest, individual cards in their roles, but you have to disregard their power level for a moment and think about the restraints that your putting on your manabase when you need white for Silence, green for Carpet of Flowers, red for Pyroblast and black for discard when you could just need only green mana for Autumn's Veil and Carpet of Flowers and black mana for discard. My point in all of this is that individually powerful cards can be undermined by the strains they put on the manabase and disruption that performs multiple roles like Thoughtseize discarding hatebears in order to eliminate the need for Pyroblasts entirely and a card that's only slightly worse than Silence in effect but significantly easier to cast is possibly a better, whole game strategy.
I've given this a lot of thought, if you stop knee jerking long enough to play test it then it'll become pretty clear that -4 Cabal Therapy for +4 Autumn's Veil, -3 Silence + 3 Thoughtseize, - 1 Infernal Tutor and Ponder for +2 Carpet of Flowers and -1 Chrome Mox for +1 Tropical Island is a much better post-board configuration vs RUG than what you guys are playing because you're picking up +4 mana sources for your "Silence"
Think about your mana base, think about the variability of their SB cards, think about Magic as a 3 game match and start playtesting with your deck optimized for games 2 and 3 and then work backwards in order to determine your MD.
Stop right here!
1) I do play ANT if the metagame favors it over TES
2) Thoughtseize has still not preplaced Duress In ANT
3) I've never seen Autums Veil in top performing ANT lists and am not even sure if I ever.saw a list with it
4) Your seriously want to argue by refering to this sites DtB section as a proof? You can argue with some noobs who don't know how that status is determined, but trying to prove a point on me with that nonsense is insulting.
5) The DtB status is determined by the frequency the deck is played and tells nothing about it's strenght as we had Burn.dec there for quite a while last year
6) following your argument we should play Cabal Ritual and PIF mainboard as well, just because ANT is listed here as a DtB
7) That DtB bullshit obviously makes me angry
8) I have no clue why you side out the Cabal Therapy + EtW plan completely as RUG usually has only 2-3 out against the goblins or dies miserable
9) being able to dig less deep is an issue if you go for Ad Nauseam against decks with Bolts or Price of Progress, especially as you choose to side out the goblins-plan
10) Having 10 white initial mana sources (not counting chrome mox) is fine for 3 white cards. This also answers the topic of mana restrains
11) Leyline isn't the only reason to run Silence as I outlined in previous posts
12) Thoughtseize is crap against tempo
13) Carpet of flowers is just a green manastone against tempo in a deck with already 40% mana (said this at least 3 times over the last 3 pages)
14) Xantid swarm being a creature is sometimes a feature if you play against specified counter like Flusterstorm, spell Pierces and such
15) What is the significant advantage other than more peek-effects if you still have to run SB Topical and a shitload of protection in the sideboard?
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It just seems like that is the only card it can fight against which definitely means it isn't worth a slot in a deck this tight
1) Ok
2) It's commonly played in lists not using Ad Nauseam in some quantity
3) I don't know about top performing lists but I have seen it in lists in order to address Leyline of Sanctity and replace Cabal Therapy before, I've certainly played with it in ANT myself previously.
4) No, I want to argue based on comparing the disruption suite used in the better performing, more often played version of Storm and hope that TES becomes just as commonly played and successful by assimilating whatever merrits it has.
5) I know
6) Irrelvant, comparing the disruption between two Storm decks isn't the same as comparing the acceleration between two Storm decks, disruption is interchangeable where as acceleration in the case of Cabal Ritual is based on the deck's ability to reach Threshold and lack of red color requirements.
7) You took it out of context
8) If you don't know your opponent's SB then you're at an informational disadvantage with Cabal Therapy game two and therefore the EV of Cabal Therapy decreases that game. If you discover your opponent is SBing a wide range of 1x counters game 2 then the EV of keeping Thoughtseize MD increases for game 3, if you discover your opponent is SBing a narrow range of 4x counters game 2 then the EV of returning Cabal Therapy to the MD increases for game 3. I don't want to rely on the presumption that I know what counters their playing post-board and the variance of whether or not they're playing Rough/Tumble in order to win game 2.
9) It's an issue, but it's a minor issue and I don't have to dig as deep as you do with the 4th Chrome Mox - Since when does RUG play Price of Progress?
10) No it's not and people need to stop pretending that it is, having to cast Silence off of a Lotus Petal is an incredibly commital play that leads you to awkward situations after your opponent counters it and you're forced to try to go off that turn into another potential counter because you've already committed 2 cards to Silence otherwise.
11) I never said it was.
12) You think Thoughtseize is crap against UWR Tempo? I think it's a perfectly serviceable card, I've done everything I can to offset the minor life loss by cutting City of Brass and playing 4 Chrome Mox.
13) And it's frequently two green mana stones vs tempo decks or it restricts their ability to play threats and hold up mana for counter spell(s). 40% mana is irrelevant, more mana pays for their soft counters so more mana may as well equate to more disruption.
14) I said it was worse vs Show&Tell for a reason, however unlike Xantid Swarm it's actually playable vs decks with removal.
15) The advantage is that it's faster because it uses all black disruption spells which can be cast off of Dark Ritual, more efficient because it can disrupt before the combo turn, more reliable because it can be cast off of 10 lands as opposed to 6 lands and it reduces, not increases, the total number of disruption spells I have to play in my SB i.e. I have 4 Autumn's Veil and you have 3 Xantid Swarm and 2 Pyroblast because I can discard Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique and Counterbalance and it doesn't conflict with Lion's Eye Diamond. And as you said, "More Peeks"
My build is perfectly viable and the mana base and mana requirements are rock solid, what I lose in having a slightly weaker "Silence" vs RUG I make up by being significantly more resilient to Wasteland. What I lose in not having Xantid Swarm post-board vs Show&Tell and Merfolk I can't really make up in anyway regarding disruption or resiliency to disruption, but I'm hoping playing Bribery for the best possible win condition and Simplify in order to not waste MD space on Chain of Vapor helps out.
I'm trying to iterate towards the fastest, most consistent list that doesn't have to SB Pyroblasts and consolidates its manabase as much as possible into the same colors. I think having 10 lands that cast Thoughtseize and 9 lands that cast Autumn's Veil is a much bigger deal than you guys are admitting regarding Silence.
If you've come to other conclusions regarding the SB Tropical Island and the disruption suite that's fine, personally I've found the white, red and black mana requirements for the deck's disruption and the inconsistency of Cabal Therapy games 1 and 2 to be incredibly burdensome. I'm hardly at a loss for SB space myself, I have plenty of SB cards to bring in vs RUG other than Autumn's Veil so I could just as easily play a couple of Swarms again and then I'd have almost all of my disruption running off of Tropical Isand vs Show&Tell. I like Carpet tho', boarding in mana sources and extending the use of Tropical Island is pretty strong in that match.
As opposed to SBing in a Chain of Vapour and risking a dead draw not knowing whether or not you'll see Leyline of Sanctity at all? There's always Revoke Existence, but considering all I want/need that slot to do is get rid of Leyline of Sanctity it seems more sensible to use the 1cc alternative that I can cast off of Tropical Island.
I guess another way of doing this is playing SB 4 Silence, 1 Tundra and 1 Revoke Existence if you cut Carpet of Flowers, maybe you could replace them with Orim's Chants and just Silence the hell out of them? It kind of functionally works the same vs Show&Tell and RUG I guess.
On that point, I almost never find chain to be useless. Either I get free storm or it buys me an additional turn. It's singlehandedly one of the more versatile options at our disposal.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Chain can also answer more than just one single card in the format reliably
First, I want to appologize as my response was very rude, but the "DtB"-argument haunts me for years in this forum and became a soft-spot for me. Back to the topic
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Today i played tes at night event here.
4-1 getting 2nd losing to dragon stompy who won.
1st game he makes trinisphere turn 1 gg
2nd i burn my hand make 12 goblins he makes city simian bonnefire gg
Full report will follow i took notes ^^
Today I played the friday night local league with Bryants last version of TES and ended 4-1 and second place.
That where my rounds and thoughts and so:
1st round vs bug birthing pot nick fit
I keep a hand of 2 ponder bs mox DR infernal led on the play thinking my opp plays jund. But he swaped. Was ok cause he still played a fair deck and I got not really punished for my hand.
I go mox imprint ponder shuffle draw a blank, next turn I draw ponder, Bs see a land and another mox and gitaxian. And just put pack ant nauseam and with gitaxian I cast it and win while he only has 1 land and a shaman. I saw with gitaxian birthing pod and glen elendra.
I dont really knwo the side of this deck so I think its side board its just discard and may be some bad counters like 2 fluster or so.
I side nothing then.
I get a normal hand he goes therapy calling dark ritual and gets there. Then i ponder and have led in play and in my top is burning and a dark ritual.
I draw the ritual and have bruning on top. He misplays from my way going eot to surgical my dark ritual cause i have one less in deck and i should already have riped the good card. then he goes therapy and calls something irrelevant but has keept only one lander.
I ponder again and set up a empty on top with a gitaxian. So I make 6 tokens and see a chaman and a pernicius deed among evelope and swang song and brainstorm. SO I just hope to get there before he rips a land. Obv he draws a fetch and plays chaman, I atack for 5 damage and draw the infernal wich dosnt get me the therapy on time for his pernicius and I die.
Now that I know that he plays plenty of 1cc I side something that might be good. I also know about the deed and the surgial.
- empty - ponder - infernal
+ tendrills +2 pyroblast
I just get a nuts hand and go empty the warrens turn one for 12 goblins via burning wish and win. Cause he dosnt have the shaman, fetch, and the deed at the same time at least.
1-0
2nd vs team america
I just go therapy something then therapy a styfle he get one more draw. I go all in for goblins and he brainstorm but dosnt get the fow and I win.
- ponder - infernal -mox
+ 2 pyroblast + tropical
He makes delver I just go land petal pyroblast it. Then I therapy he brainstorms and I get a hymn . Few turns draw and GO and he still has 2 lands and no pressure and I have a petal, led and volcanic, city, gemstone, and a fetch (cause I know he has styfle). I hold in hand ant nauseam infernal. I wish for seize wich he bs in response when i cast it and see 2 daze and 2 styfle and fow. Fow gets discarted and then next turn I draw another wish now for the ponder. With it I see Ritual and Silence. So next turn I go silence he dazes I ritual in response he stops dazing me and lets my silence resolve. So with the 5 mana I have exactly I go ad nauseam response cracking led for red. If he dazed again I would not been able to make ad nauseam and only infernal fro goblins with 2 therapys. Wich 1st would have called golgary charm for the may be and then 2nd just there for value. Was also a good plan but ant nauseam just wins on spot. So its ok.
2-0
Round 3 Doomsday
I play against a friend with my old version with 4 silence 3 chant and sensei and also ant nauseam main (I was not sure If he still has inside).
I Keep a gitaxian 3 lander and rip a fourth land. On turn 3 I make 10 goblins with the possibility of next turn double burning wish for a seize and and any other card. But he had DR sensei in play and led. Draws ponder, plays it and gets AD nauseman and I die.
The deck HAs important blue cards like ideas unbound and gitaxian or brainstorm at some spot and he dosnt know that i have pyroblast so it’s a good surprise card if i manage to only have ntaped the volcanic and tap my white sources to make him fall in the trap. Therapy is also not so good cause of sensei.
- empty -2 therapy
+1 xantid +2 pyroblast
I start with a cantrip, He plays ponder and I go of infernal, led Ad nauseman turn 2 for game.
In game 3 I have brainstorm, pyro, mine, flooded, and some ritual or so. He plays sensei and pases. I play gemstone and pass. I draw gitaxian, and see 2 silence and 3 other cards. With probe I draw brinasotm so i fetch for volcanic brainstorm with it so I still have white mana. And then find a therapy wich gets his 2 silence. If he top decks one of the three doomsday he can go of due having led in play dr and gitaxian. But he only finds burning wich is casted to search doomsday. I draw gitaxian cast it for lives. And pass. He casts ritual, then doomsday and I spread his deck so I know what pile he has made. His pile is maniac pile so he gitaxians and dostn crack. With his 2 lands plays ideas unbound I pyro and on my turn he is on 7 live. So I just go ritual, led burning fr thendrills and GG.
3-0
4th rounds vs Dragon stompy.
I thought he was playing pox, but donst matter cause my hand was also good vs him. But he goes game one city of traitors and simian into trinispehere and I just play 2 fetchs so that he donst see that i play combo and He plays a golem. When i have to discard I just scoop up.
-3 Silence -2 ponder
+1 Chain of Vapor +2 Abrupt Decay +1 Thoughtseize +1 Tropical
I burn my hand of 2 ritual, 2 mox, led, germstone and burning to make 1st turn 14 goblins and he just city of traitors, simian into bonefire for one O.O. Next turn another simian and triniesphere and the next turn a blood moon for my chain of vapor makes me concede when im facing a lodestone.
3-1
5th round vs Ant
He played tes before and knows the pairing is really hard for him cause im faster and so.
We both mull to six but he draws 7 again and has to go 5. he just plays a land and pases. I start gitaxian seeing 3 petals and infernal and therapy makes fast justice of him. Then He duress me and so and at the end I have 2 rite of flame, 2 dr burning and infernal and I go pif loop and gg.
- empty
+1 pyroblast
last game of the night I keep my seven with led DR silence and Ad naseam and some more. He mulls to 5 again and I bling therapy for led and get one seeing surgial (O.O?), lim duls, and dark ritual. next turn therapy again for dark ritual and then Next turn rip a land and cast ad nauseam at 19 life. crack for black if may be he dosnt surgicals my rituals now. But he thinks and does finaly and then I reveal before getting to 11 live 2 petals, 3 led burning and more stuff and he concedes.
So ended 2nd and liked the deck. In 5 hours I have a trial for GP Paris and Im gonna play it again. So lets see.
Losing vs the dragon stompy is bad But that bonefire and triniesphere 1st turn is really cruel from him :D
Boarding Versus ANT and Doomsday may need minor tweaking, my friend. A big congratz!
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Why? Can you explain what you mean?
I think he's referring to the fact that you hope to resolve Pyroblast against a deck with 7 chants.
The thing is the surprise factor.
My gameplan was to tap on white so that i dont own white source. So they will not fear my silence and chant me. Then i just catch him with the pyro sheningan.
His deck only plays 7 chant 4 gitaxian and usualy playing chantbinnadvance is slow but possible. And gitaxian is holded yo the end combo cause is important in the ddpile usaly if no sensei is there.
Apart from may be geting brainstorm in response to thereapy is huge.
Thats my thoughts^^
I seem to remember notes from Lem's reports saying: "Sideboard: Nothing! Speed is king!"
Since I play a different sideboard, I usually have an additional discard to board, but with Bryant's current list I agree with the "side nothing" strategy.
Yes but enpty the warrens is worser than pyroblast. And with the new list vs ant is the correct way.
But i think vs d day if they dont know the plan of pyroblast. Its a win card. And xantids is also nice in 1x
I could also have sided out 1 empty and 1 therapy just for the 2 pyro but thought xantid was beter cause of silence and therapy bad cause of sensei.
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