Miracle Control

[klaus]

Seemed pretty silly, running maindeck red blasts. It's not as if the payoff is some insane blowout victory; it's just an extra counterspell. And it's a stone cold blank against 6 of the top 16 decks from the last open:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653

I never liked Snapcaster in actual control decks. Joe only has 10 cards that can be flashed back, compared to the 13 or 14 that most of the Snapcaster builds have. It feels like a very late game card, especially when Brainstorm isn't a card you fire off turn 1. He replaced a Sword to Plowshares with it, but I think it's closer to a 4th Jace, really.

I also disliked SCM for a while, but eventually changed my mind. Maxing out virtual BSs is key to ship back stranded Miracles, plus adding 1-2 CMC2 spells enhances the CB curve.

[Cipher]

I also disliked SCM for a while, but eventually changed my mind. Maxing out virtual BSs is key to ship back stranded Miracles, plus adding 1-2 CMC2 spells enhances the CB curve.

I'm trying out 1 Predict and 1 Impulse in those slots. I haven't been drawing them enough to know whether they warrant their spot, but I've been liking them so far. I think Snapcaster -> Brainstorm is probably the sequence I would anticipate using the most, for the reason you just mentioned. Watching Joe's stream, I worry about having another Venser-like card that is often dead early game and not game ending like Jace or Entreat even when it lands.

I'd also be interested to hear what people board out for the UWR Delver MU. I've been siding out FoWs and Jaces, but I really hate siding Jace out. Having all the removal seems good. Entreat seems good. Cliques seem good. Is Jace really the right call?

I board out:

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares

for:

1 Venser
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

Like you said, all removal seems good. My philosophy with fighting tempo in any format is to attack the weakest point in their deck; their low threat density. If the game goes long enough, you win anyway. Cards like Spell Pierce help aggressively force through threats, but if it's not directly stopping a threat I'm worried about, I'm not going to keep it in over more removal.

I'm on the fence about whether or not I run the third Entreat in this matchup. 4x Spell Pierce is ridiculous, but maybe I'm overreacting. I feel like some of the value is lost when True Name can just attack right through it, and Batterskull often beats it. A match I had against UWR a while back came down to racing, and 2 tokens couldn't get there.

[Einherjer]

A match I had against UWR a while back came down to racing, and 2 tokens couldn't get there.

Which may have happened due to the fact that you board out one copy of Swords to Plowshares. Why would you ever do that against any tempo/creaturedeck?

Greetings

[bryanzoll]

Hey all,

I am looking for advice in regards to my UW Control list. I went 6-2-1 at GP DC with a list similar to it and I wanted to get further input for ideas:

2 Stoneforge mystic

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus

1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility

4 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Batterskull

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, TMS

1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
4 Islands
2 Plains
3 Tundras
1 Volcanic
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility (was Moat at GP)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Terminus
2 Divert
3 REB
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear/Tear (was disenchant at GP)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spell Pierce

[Dzra]

I board out:

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares

for:

1 Venser
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

Why the Venser? If you are boarding out a Plow presumably because it doesn't hit TNN then the same would apply to Venser. It was along this same logic that lead me to board out Jace (he can't protect himself from a TNN or creature with SoFI). I suppose Venser is really good against Batterskull or non-TNN, non-SoFI equipped creatures, but that seems potentially narrow. Maybe with all their soft countermagic Entreat is the cut, but I feel like the potential to cast Entreat and reverse the clock posed by their TNN seems valuable.

[Cipher]

Which may have happened due to the fact that you board out one copy of Swords to Plowshares. Why would you ever do that against any tempo/creaturedeck?

Greetings

I just made that decision after watching Joe's boarding against UWR. Haven't actually played like this, yet. I was thinking that Delver and Stoneforge are the 8 targets and, although you have to get rid of a Mystic once it resolves, the trade is still not in you favor, and if they drop Batterskull you need two removal spells to stop it. It may just be the wrong decision, since you can kill the Mystic before it ever plays the Batterskull. I already run a full playset of Swords and I was running out of room, but one of the Counterspells is probably just better to cut. I think I'll try -2 Counterspell, +1 Entreat, +1 Swords.

[Cipher]

Why the Venser? If you are boarding out a Plow presumably because it doesn't hit TNN then the same would apply to Venser. It was along this same logic that lead me to board out Jace (he can't protect himself from a TNN or creature with SoFI). I suppose Venser is really good against Batterskull or non-TNN, non-SoFI equipped creatures, but that seems potentially narrow. Maybe with all their soft countermagic Entreat is the cut, but I feel like the potential to cast Entreat and reverse the clock posed by their TNN seems valuable.

Venser can bounce sword -> block. Even if they have a True Name, the Sword is the big issue, not the 3/1 unblockable. I admit that it's not the greatest, but I've done it enough times that I like it in that matchup.

I used to cut 2 Jaces against RUG, on account of Nimble Mongoose, but I feel like that deck has such a terrible late game that you don't really need a card like Jace. Entreat, RIP, Counterbalance, etc. just lock it out the game, for way less mana. UWR feels more resilient to me but I can still see cutting Jace. The lack of Stifle really cuts down on the power of the soft counters, though; I don't feel like Jace's mana cost is as much an issue as it was against RUG.

[phazonmutant]

Yep - that's exactly what's come up for me. I have fused Wear and Tear exactly twice in the entire time I've played it, and I've been out a land for no reason twice in the last ~8 matches I've played. I'll be going back to Disenchant this week and I'll see how it goes.

You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of disenchant?

[Dzra]

Venser can bounce sword -> block.

Yeah, I can see how that's not the worst.

UWR feels more resilient to me but I can still see cutting Jace. The lack of Stifle really cuts down on the power of the soft counters, though; I don't feel like Jace's mana cost is as much an issue as it was against RUG.

Well, both finishers have to play around Pierce, but my thinking is also that Entreat doesn't have to play around REBs and is still good when there is a TNN on deck. Regardless, I'm definitely happy to see Stifle on the decline.

You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of Cleansing?

If it's the same reason as me, I used to run Seal of Cleansing but then cut it for Wear//Tear when I added Snapcasters. Now I'm cutting the Wear//Tear for the Disenchant, but the ability to flash it back still seems really good.

[oarsman]

I just made that decision after watching Joe's boarding against UWR.

I would hesitate to copy anything I am doing right now. Playing around with the numbers and placement of Swords is something I am trying. It's only been a handful of matches so far and it's not refined.

[Cipher]

I would hesitate to copy anything I am doing right now. Playing around with the numbers and placement of Swords is something I am trying. It's only been a handful of matches so far and it's not refined.

Oh, trust me, I'm definitely not copying. My list is pretty far off from even your more recent lists. But I've boarded out some number of Swords against Shardless before on account of the scary part of their creatures being the ETB (Tarmogoyf withholding), and your comment on Stoneforge v. Swords stuck with me. Actively boarding out Swords was a mistake, though.

[Adryan]

Venser seems like the worst card you can have against a Tempodeck. He is not that great or gamebreaking, costs 4 mana, therefore is vulnerable to Daze and i expect my 4cc spells against Tempo to win the game, like Jace does.

Also note that removing a SFM in this matchup, is like removing Batterskull. 5 mana is a lot for UWR and when they have 5 mana you should be in pretty good shape.

I never get guys that keep on playing inferior versions of Miracles. Best versions of Miracle are Flashversions with Snapcaster and/or (best both^^) Vendilion Clique. If you play another version there are only 4 reasons: 1) you think that Miracle is too powerful and want to dilute it for your opponent so that he can have more fun.
2) half of the guys at your local shop are playing Dredge, RUG Delver and Lands. 3) you like it. you like the freewin Blood Moon, Helm Combo etc. gives you against bad opponents. 4) you are not good enough for a Flash version. The flashguys give you more options, especially if you play 1-2 Ponder, which makes it more difficult to play fast and correct, if you're not experienced.

If you want to play the most powerful and consistent version of Miracles and have trust in your playskill there is no reason to play any other version than a flash version at a big tournament with a normal meta.

[Erdvermampfa]

Can someone offer me a well-founded reasoning why most people play Counterbalance in the MD? I'm not implying that it's bad but just curious about the deeper rationale about it. I know that the obvious explanation appears to be the combo matchup even though I'm of the conviction that MD Pierce/CS/FoW/Snapcaster/Clique with the additional hate from the SB can suffice most of the times. While there are certainly decks that still fold to a active Counterbalance-Lock (e.g. RUG), I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

[Mackan]

Personally I reason it's because the deck is slow and don't want to miss landdrops. Against a fast strategy (often with a low curve) you need to generate card advantage. CB does that for you and without it you will have 5 lands in play, a jace in the graveyard and and opponent with 2 lands and a 3/3 mongoose killing you. Other cards to consider if you want to play control but not counterbalance would be standstill and ancestral vision for example.

[YamiJoey]

Between Jace, Brainstorm, and Top, you have a huge card selection. Against less permanent-based decks it's an absolute beating, and against permanent decks you get to stop additional stuff hitting the board whilst you find a way to deal with what's on board. I feel our mana costs are actually excellent for it. Plenty of 1's, and fetchable 2's and 3's with Enlightened Tutor. I always played D-Sphere and Thassa at 3, with RiP, E-Field, and additional CB's at 2. I also had a Helm at 4, almost purely for the Enlightened Tutor -> Counter your Jace -> represent a lethal combo. You can then top your Forces with Brainstorm to counter Forces and then Top them back to actually cast them if necessary, and even have Terminus at 6 to counter random Titans from Nic Fit, Fireblast from Mono Red, and whatever else.

CB is super strong in a lot of MU's, and I basically never took it out, as it was just free wins against most of the field a lot of the time.

[twndomn]

I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

Only a twisted meta-game, like your local players are full of Goblins, would taking out CB becomes an option on the table.


I believe it's time to revisit Porphyry Nodes. 1. It can deal with TNN. 2. Say you go second, your opponent would tap out for Stoneforge finding Batterskull turn 2, quite a lot. When it's your turn, play 2nd land and Nodes, now you present an interesting dilemma for your opponent. If he leaves BS in his hand, then that BS is at the risk of getting Clique away. If he puts it in play, it'll get to connect once and lose the token. Feels like that card has got 50% of the format covered.

[alphastryk]

You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of disenchant?

...
If it's the same reason as me, I used to run Seal of Cleansing but then cut it for Wear//Tear when I added Snapcasters. Now I'm cutting the Wear//Tear for the Disenchant, but the ability to flash it back still seems really good.

Well, I think I'd be on Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing regardless of Snapcatser since the tutors don't usually come in in the same matches the Disenchant does.

At the end of the day though, I feel like my Disenchant experiment failed and I'll be going back to Wear // Tear and just start playing a Mountain main again.

Only a twisted meta-game, like your local players are full of Goblins, would taking out CB becomes an option on the table.


I believe it's time to revisit Porphyry Nodes. 1. It can deal with TNN. 2. Say you go second, your opponent would tap out for Stoneforge finding Batterskull turn 2, quite a lot. When it's your turn, play 2nd land and Nodes, now you present an interesting dilemma for your opponent. If he leaves BS in his hand, then that BS is at the risk of getting Clique away. If he puts it in play, it'll get to connect once and lose the token. Feels like that card has got 50% of the format covered.

Counterbalance lets you setup to wipe the board and keep new things off too, so once you get ahead it's very hard to lose. The whole reason counterbalance is good is that decks in Legacy have compressed mana curves and the numbers line up fairly often already. This is especially true for Tempo and Combo, which are a large portion of the metagame right now.

Porphyry Nodes has been amazing for me lately - it's easy to resolve through Pierce / Daze and always kills something while not caring about TNN or Nimble Mongoose.

Here's where I'm at with the basic mountain plan:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will

3 Terminus

4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wear // Tear

[Dzra]

So I was thinking how Spirit of the Labyrinth is likely to be played in Death and Taxes and that got me thinking about how hilariously good their Spirit makes our Vendilion Cliques.

[klaus]

Well, I think I'd be on Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing regardless of Snapcatser since the tutors don't usually come in in the same matches the Disenchant does.

At the end of the day though, I feel like my Disenchant experiment failed and I'll be going back to Wear // Tear and just start playing a Mountain main again.

How come?

[RainbowPenguin]

So I was thinking how Spirit of the Labyrinth is likely to be played in Death and Taxes and that got me thinking about how hilariously good their Spirit makes our Vendilion Cliques.

Heh. Yeah, I'd wanna see that happen for sure.
Might still be a problem overall, because of brainstorm, jace, ponder if you play it. We will see.

Can someone offer me a well-founded reasoning why most people play Counterbalance in the MD? I'm not implying that it's bad but just curious about the deeper rationale about it. I know that the obvious explanation appears to be the combo matchup even though I'm of the conviction that MD Pierce/CS/FoW/Snapcaster/Clique with the additional hate from the SB can suffice most of the times. While there are certainly decks that still fold to a active Counterbalance-Lock (e.g. RUG), I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

Jace, Brainstorm, Top are all good with Miracles. They are also all good with Counterbalance. On the Surface, Miracles (or at least Terminus) and Counterbalance don't play well together, but the effects complement each other well. It just fits in very well, once you already have the rest of the decklist down. The deck is as much a 'Jace deck' or 'Sensei's Divining Top deck' as it is a 'Counterbalance deck', if that makes sense. For the same reason, you don't need to lockout people with it. Consider that if, over the course of a single game, you counter something like 3 spells with it, it has actually provided crazy value already - and sometimes, it does in fact just lock people out of the game.

Hey all,

I am looking for advice in regards to my UW Control list. I went 6-2-1 at GP DC with a list similar to it and I wanted to get further input for ideas:
[Deck]

Well done! Oh, and welcome.

Was there anything in particular you struggled with, or anything you felt was optimal? It's hard to provide feedback without knowing where you are coming from.
Curious: Did you like the thopter combo? I know that others have tried it, and been less than satisfied with it.