All B/R update speculation.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Honestly, destroy the equipment and TNN loses a lot of power.

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[Dzra]

Why are people talking about TNN when Stoneforge is the obvious offender?

What is this? Modern? Stoneforge is a very powerful card; it might even be more powerful than TNN, depending on how you'd like to characterize it. That doesn't mean it needs to get banned. You can still interact with a resolved SFM on multiple levels, including removal and/or Stifle. You can still interact with the equipment it finds using hand disruption and artifact destruction. This isn't Modern, we don't have to ban cards for being good.

Not that I'm advocating a banning of any sort, but True-Name Nemesis is the obvious offender... and not for being the most powerful card, but for easily being one of the least interactive cards ever printed. Honestly, it would fix a lot about TNN if they simply errata'd its ability to be an "enters the battlefield" trigger. Just pause for a moment and think about how much more balanced that would make it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah I'm not sure why R&D wanted his ability to be static vs. triggered. It seems counter intuitive to create a card the way they did. I'm getting ready to upgrade my TNN playset to Japanese. I'm guessing that eventually it will be errata'ed to a triggered ability, if things keep going this way.

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[Dzra]

Yeah I'm not sure why R&D wanted his ability to be static vs. triggered. It seems counter intuitive to create a card the way they did.

I'm fairly certain that very few people in WotC with much decision-making power actually give Legacy much more than idle thought.

[menace13]

HMMM. wheres the ban tnn crowd? since its been a few months and a handful of tourney results, i figured legacy will bow down to the all mighty 3/1.
were still playing legacy right? format is still healthy as ever. yay!

oh. yeah, quote me on that.

I agree, all it needs is Misstep back.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree, all it needs is Misstep back.

Whoa, man. Easy on the crack.

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[sdematt]

If the meta previous to Nov. 1st was any indication, SFM is fine. Punishing Jund had a fairly positive matchup against Esperblade. TNN isn't unfair, it just removes loads of interaction in a format where Wizards is looking to promote interaction.

It has pushed many decks to the periphery, and I don't like playing against it. I thought it would create a net gain of some Blade decks and a net loss of some BGx midrange decks, making the midrange split about 50/50. Instead, it moved it to over 90/10 in favour of TNN from a good 40/60 prior to TNN.

-Matt

[Lemnear]

If the meta previous to Nov. 1st was any indication, SFM is fine. Punishing Jund had a fairly positive matchup against Esperblade. TNN isn't unfair, it just removes loads of interaction in a format where Wizards is looking to promote interaction.

It has pushed many decks to the periphery, and I don't like playing against it. I thought it would create a net gain of some Blade decks and a net loss of some BGx midrange decks, making the midrange split about 50/50. Instead, it moved it to over 90/10 in favour of TNN from a good 40/60 prior to TNN.

-Matt

Damn! i'm so hot talking about all that on the podcast!

[Slag]

I advocate the banning of True-Name Nemesis less because it warps the metagame and more because it has caused a sharp rise in the number of Source posters going totally bonkers.

[Lemnear]

"don't ban cards; ban whiners" lol

[testing32]

I advocate the banning of True-Name Nemesis less because it warps the metagame and more because it has caused a sharp rise in the number of Source posters going totally bonkers.

TNN is fine. The problem card is brainstorm.

[Lemnear]

TNN is fine. The problem card is brainstorm.

That song again? Play your new Brainstorm-hatebear dood

[catmint]

I advocate the banning of True-Name Nemesis less because it warps the metagame and more because it has caused a sharp rise in the number of Source posters going totally bonkers.

"don't ban cards; ban whiners" lol

This is a thread to talk about bannings/unbannings and this is was people do using observations/conclusions/data. If you have a different opinion that's fine, but save the sarcastic (but surely funny ) comments to those hype/non-sense threads and not if there is an somehow reasonable discussion going on.

[FTW]

Ban Notion Thief. It makes Brainstorm bad and Brainstorm is the reason to play Legacy.

[Slag]

This is a thread to talk about bannings/unbannings and this is was people do using observations/conclusions/data. If you have a different opinion that's fine, but save the sarcastic (but surely funny ) comments to those hype/non-sense threads and not if there is an somehow reasonable discussion going on.

I suppose if I were to phrase my point like a little less of a wad, I'd say it more like this: "True-Name Nemesis has implications outside just the metagame itself. The presence of such a powerful, difficult to answer card has created such a divide in the player base that the format itself is becoming a more caustic environment." It reminds me a lot of the reason wotc gave for banning ravager in standard; not that ravager was everywhere, but that players were finding the game less fun (and playing less) because of it.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand how the "the format has never been healthier" people in this thread just completely ignore the data for December 2013 and January 2014. In the now-closed "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, I posted data showing how TNN was beginning to push out non-blue, non-TNN decks (citing Maverick as the prime example), but people said that Maverick didn't matter (uh... less non-blue decks able to compete with blue decks is a good thing?) and the format would adapt with more decks like Jund straight raping TNN decks... yeah, December 2013 and January 2014 sure showed how awesome Jund is doing versus TNN. In case people didn't notice, it's not. At all.

And I fully understand that January 2014's data is incomplete and that the final numbers will move things around, but I don't anticipate drastic changes in the next 8 days left in the month. Also, the TNN-killer, Jund, really has no reason as to why it's performing so poorly (other than losing to TNN-decks), particularly when Storm (one of it's worst matchups) is at a 6-8 month low. If TNN is where the format is right now, and if Jund truly just rapes TNN-decks for free with infinite answers like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Liliana of the Veil, Ancient Grudge, Pyroblast, etc, while not having to worry too much about facing Storm during a tournament, then wouldn't Jund be near the top of the format?

I suspect that it's mediocre performance in a TNN world is because Jund just isn't the TNN-killer it was billed to be. Jund, outside of the 1-2 Sylvan Library it may run, has no library manipulation to get their exact answer to TNN when it's needed. By overloading their deck with cards like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Ancient Grudge, etc, Jund is playing nothing but reactive cards to the blue player's proactive cards like Delver/SFM/TNN/etc; a non-blue deck that's essentially slaved to their natural draw step trying to play the control role versus a blue deck with Jace/TNN/Brainstorm/Snapcaster/etc isn't a winning proposition.

TNN-decks tend to be slightly grindier decks, with some veering on the tempo side of things (Patriot) while others prefer the control approach (Blade Control). Jund is also trying to grind the game down, but it lacks the luxury of having access to a near-invincible win condition and also lacks the versatility of Brainstorm to dig for it's answers to said near-invincible win condition.

[Higgs]

That assessment is probably correct but then it seems only logical to switch to a UBx control deck which has access to all those TNN sweepers plus the library manipulation, such as BUG landstill maybe. However I can't imagine how the meta will shape up to be with the addition of the new hatebear.

[Lemnear]

I don't understand how the "the format has never been healthier" people in this thread just completely ignore the data for December 2013 and January 2014. In the now-closed "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, I posted data showing how TNN was beginning to push out non-blue, non-TNN decks (citing Maverick as the prime example), but people said that Maverick didn't matter (uh... less non-blue decks able to compete with blue decks is a good thing?) and the format would adapt with more decks like Jund straight raping TNN decks... yeah, December 2013 and January 2014 sure showed how awesome Jund is doing versus TNN. In case people didn't notice, it's not. At all.

And I fully understand that January 2014's data is incomplete and that the final numbers will move things around, but I don't anticipate drastic changes in the next 8 days left in the month. Also, the TNN-killer, Jund, really has no reason as to why it's performing so poorly (other than losing to TNN-decks), particularly when Storm (one of it's worst matchups) is at a 6-8 month low. If TNN is where the format is right now, and if Jund truly just rapes TNN-decks for free with infinite answers like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Liliana of the Veil, Ancient Grudge, Pyroblast, etc, while not having to worry too much about facing Storm during a tournament, then wouldn't Jund be near the top of the format?

I suspect that it's mediocre performance in a TNN world is because Jund just isn't the TNN-killer it was billed to be. Jund, outside of the 1-2 Sylvan Library it may run, has no library manipulation to get their exact answer to TNN when it's needed. By overloading their deck with cards like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Ancient Grudge, etc, Jund is playing nothing but reactive cards to the blue player's proactive cards like Delver/SFM/TNN/etc; a non-blue deck that's essentially slaved to their natural draw step trying to play the control role versus a blue deck with Jace/TNN/Brainstorm/Snapcaster/etc isn't a winning proposition.

TNN-decks tend to be slightly grindier decks, with some veering on the tempo side of things (Patriot) while others prefer the control approach (Blade Control). Jund is also trying to grind the game down, but it lacks the luxury of having access to a near-invincible win condition and also lacks the versatility of Brainstorm to dig for it's answers to said near-invincible win condition.

I fear this is primary a numbers game. How many people played TNN+SFM decks compared to JUND during Dec/Jan?

[FTW]

I fear this is primary a numbers game. How many people played TNN+SFM decks compared to JUND during Dec/Jan?

Unban Survival of the Fittest. Then Jund can play SFM+TNN. Problem solved.

[Arsenal]

I fear this is primary a numbers game. How many people played TNN+SFM decks compared to JUND during Dec/Jan?

Players, especially pros (which other players will follow like sheep), want to win. If Jund truly could just auto-win versus TNN-decks as people claimed it was going to do in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, and the likelihood of it facing Storm is low (which it currently is), then I have to imagine that players would play whatever deck that gives them the best chance of winning, not necessarily the deck they like the most. As a pointed example, many players didn't "like" playing with Hulk Flash, but did so because it gave them the best chance at winning during that brief time in Legacy.

That assessment is probably correct but then it seems only logical to switch to a UBx control deck which has access to all those TNN sweepers plus the library manipulation, such as BUG landstill maybe. However I can't imagine how the meta will shape up to be with the addition of the new hatebear.

A UBx deck with access to Brainstorm and TNN-sweepers? There's a reason why Shardless BUG finished 4th (technically 5th after adjusting for DeathBlade's true calculation) for December 2013.