Miracle Control

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

is it worth to try 2 or 3 needles in the mainto get arround of the Vail and other ativation effects?

I mean we can clearly remove the Sotl if it hits the board only the Vial is a permanent problem
needle would solve that, is manaeffiecent and can solve other problems too.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[twndomn]

what's with all these paranoid discussion? When Notion Thief was introduced, everyone hyped it up so much. It has built-in flash, unlike the Spirit. Spirit will meet a StP, just as Thief did. I Don't see what the big deal is. If you are THAT concerned, run more EE. EE is versatile enough you might want to run it for every non storm match-up anyway.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I am not a friend of EE with only CmC as maximum and trying to avoid a more fragile manabase with adding a third color so for me EE is not a realy good
solution.

I understand you point and can only speak for me that I just want a solution for a siuation were I have to fight this thing in ervery 3 or 4th Game.
It just anoys you when there is a Vial on 2 and you have to plan that each brainstorm can be card disadvantage so you don´t play him as long as
vial is untapped as long as you don´t know that he don´t play the spirit.
To solve that awfull situation before it oucres we are discussiing what we can do against it.

I mean we are control players and as such it is only natural to think of all possible scenarios and soultion beforehand to
be in control of the game when it actually happens.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Zinch]

If you have a sword in hand you don't have anything to fear unless he has also an active mom... I don't think it would be such a common situation to be afraid at the moment.

After sideboarding, you are gonna put your artifact hate anyways for his/her vial equipment anyway, so it would be even less threatening

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I agree with you that its not so common thats the reason I refuse to a a third color fo it bnut thinking about 2 needles main which would
get me also some free sideboard slots for more stuff. But at the moment I do not know what I sholud remove.

Best regards

Teveshszat

[Einherjer]

General note: Before discussing what to add, make sure you know what you want to cut in the first place.

Plus I will not participate in stupid discussions like this...

Greetings

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Plus I will not participate in stupid discussions like this...

to late for that you allready participated with your post who says that you will not participate.

By the Way if I know what to cut i won´t ask if people out of the forum can help me. For
this reason I also posted my list.
And if you have read my other posts I want to know if adding needle to mainboard is
a viable option.

Best regards

Teveshszat

[twndomn]

Hello,

By the Way if I know what to cut i won´t ask if people out of the forum can help me. For
this reason I also posted my list.
And if you have read my other posts I want to know if adding needle to mainboard is
a viable option.

Best regards

Teveshszat

You are being paranoid over a hypothetical board state that's so rare, might not matter at all. I am against MD needle. MD needle is only valid for a specific Miracle build that also MD Enlightened Tutor, most likely RiP-Helm build. If you are tutoring for Needle instead of tutoring for combo piece like Helm/RiP for the win, you're most likely very behind anyway.

Another approach is to actually bait out the Spirit. Start the turn using brainstorm, once DnT player vial in the Spirit. You can EE to wipe out multiple dudes, most likely Spirit + Thalia, Spirit + Revoker. As others have mentioned before, once you bait out the Spirit, just Terminus it along with everything else.

The beauty of Miracle is that we don't care if you drop a TNN or a Spirit or a 20/20 token, they all just die to mass removal. Until DnT starts to dominate the format using the Spirit, there's no point being hysterical about it.

[DragoFireheart]

The beauty of Miracle is that we don't care if you drop a TNN or a Spirit or a 20/20 token, they all just die to mass removal. Until DnT starts to dominate the format using the Spirit, there's no point being hysterical about it.

I agree. Between Terminus, STP, and Verdict, they solve 99% of the format's creatures. Spirit is a nuisance but it doesn't cripple the deck by any means.

[Dzra]

Spirit is good no doubt, but just like TNN I believe that Miracles is much more equipped to deal with the problem than many other decks. Out of all the Blue decks, Miracles will probably be one of the ones least affected.

[Einherjer]

Hello,



to late for that you allready participated with your post who says that you will not participate.

By the Way if I know what to cut i won´t ask if people out of the forum can help me. For
this reason I also posted my list.
And if you have read my other posts I want to know if adding needle to mainboard is
a viable option.

Best regards

Teveshszat

Want to be pickey, hu? Well, I will tell you how you should have done it, and how every new idea should be presented.

First of all you got your innovation, be it Pithing Needle in your case. You then outline the possible upsides of it, that'd be the ability to turn off annoying stuff preboard that we cannot, otherwise. Hinting to the most obvious targets might not be necessary at all - but is done anyways - just because, we can. After you have made your point clear why this card is good you should follow it up with a reasoning why it is needed in the preboard, and not in the mainboard, probably accompanied with a hint to the current metagame-changes. Should those outline an obvious reason to move Sideboard-Cards to the mainboard you can now suggest things to remove, plus don't forget to tell us why you think those cards are inferior to your Pithing Needles. Should this sound compelling you could convince others to test this for/with you. More people would chime in and give your their opinion about the topic and the thought process behind it. In the end you would be convinced that it is a bad idea or you have created a possible way to alter the mainboard.

On the other hand... "is it worth to try 2 or 3 needles in the mainto get arround of the Vail and other ativation effects? " will not mobilize alot of the silent readers.

I didn't mean to be harsh by any means, but I'd really like the level of discussion to be at the one we had already, then I could finally join the discussions again - until then - enjoy!

PS: For those of you going to Paris and willing to do intense testing the two weeks before it - PM me - we could work something out.

Greetings

[DragoFireheart]

Spirit is good no doubt, but just like TNN I believe that Miracles is much more equipped to deal with the problem than many other decks. Out of all the Blue decks, Miracles will probably be one of the ones least affected.

Spirit is just another hatebear to deal with. Teeg is far more scary because it locks out more cards and... we don't seem bothered by that too much in the grand scheme of things

TNN is just an over-costed mongoose. Wake me up when a uncounterable Gaddock Teeg with shroud/hexproof is printed.

[locifer]

Hello guys,

I have been out of legacy for a little over a year (last deck I played was right when RIP/Helm started picking up steam). I've been trying to catch up on the past 15 or so pages of the thread so I can get an idea of where I'm going with the deck. My research is showing the obvious two camps of Helm/RIP (possibly with ETutor) and more traditional SCM/Entreat.

I took a look at the deck that was in last weekend's top 16 of SCG Columbus and noticed that it had Trinket Mages main for seemingly a couple of bullets (EE, Needle and Relic) and SDT. From what I can see here, Needle main would be an answer mainly for Sneak Attack and Liliana? Are there other commonly found things that you could expect to see that would justify a trinket package in the main? Possibly the equipment of choice when against a blade type deck?

I'm trying to prepare for rejoining my local meta and I don't quite have a list ready yet, but I'm leaning toward one that runs some number of Cliques and probably without RIP combo in the main. I'm just so unfamiliar with what is good and not around now that I don't actually know how to pack the deck currently. My meta is infested with greedy mana bases (last week playing my buddies Goblins I saw two MUD, two Shardless, Jund, Deathblade, Elves, Pox, and OmniTell with my buddy letting me know that there are dudes who normally play Shardless and D&T not present. The land bases, mainly targeting the Shardless, MUD, Jund and Deathblade players because they're actually skilled players, are leading me to think that Blood Moon might be ok. Blood Moon has shifted out of favor since I've last played, but I'm unsure as to what quantities of everything I should be running.

I can update this with my current list when I get home, but if there's anything specific that could help me with a decent direction to go, I would greatly appreciate it.

edit:

4 Counterbalance 3 SDT 1 EE 4 Force of Will 4 Brainstorm 2 Counterspell 4 Terminus 4 Swords to Plowshares 2 Spell Pierce/Snare ? 3 Jace, TMS 2 Entreat the Angels 5 spots (thinking some number of Clique/SCM)

22 Lands 4 Island 2 Plains 4 Flooded Strand 2 Scalding Tarn 2 Arid Mesa 2 Volcanic Island 3 Tundra 1 Karakas 2 other lands, thinking 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Island

Looking forward to rejoining the ranks of control and hoping I can contribute something worthwhile to the discussion.

[Dzra]

I really dislike the cheese of winning with a Blood Moon, although I'll admit that I've been having success recently with it (it's hot against Jund Depths). I don't like Trinket Mage here since the body isn't really worth too much. I'd rather pack more Cliques or Snapcasters. If you want a tutor effect, Enlightened Tutor is an instant, low mana, finds enchantments, and can be Snapcaster'd back.

Honestly, as Miracles, don't focus on beating their mana bases. Your number one goal against many fair decks is to drop a big Entreat at their EoT and just win. That said, if the opportunity arises where you can land Blood Moon and win on the spot then that's fine too, but don't count on that being good every game.

[Rush80]

Well, I think I'd be on Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing regardless of Snapcatser since the tutors don't usually come in in the same matches the Disenchant does.

At the end of the day though, I feel like my Disenchant experiment failed and I'll be going back to Wear // Tear and just start playing a Mountain main again.



Counterbalance lets you setup to wipe the board and keep new things off too, so once you get ahead it's very hard to lose. The whole reason counterbalance is good is that decks in Legacy have compressed mana curves and the numbers line up fairly often already. This is especially true for Tempo and Combo, which are a large portion of the metagame right now.

Porphyry Nodes has been amazing for me lately - it's easy to resolve through Pierce / Daze and always kills something while not caring about TNN or Nimble Mongoose.

Here's where I'm at with the basic mountain plan:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will

3 Terminus

4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wear // Tear

I have been experimenting online with the following anti crit package:

4 Terminus
2 Swords
1 Pyroclasm
1 Eng Exp
3 jace
3 Entreat

Sideboard
1 Pyroclasm
1 verdict
1 moat
3 reb

I feel I am happy to switch 2 swords for full board removal spells as the meta is creatures heavy some with evasion.

How comes few play 4 terminus?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hello guys,
[td]
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
1 EE
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce/Snare ?

3 Jace, TMS
2 Entreat the Angels

5 spots (thinking some number of Clique/SCM)

[/td]
[td]22 Lands
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
2 other lands, thinking 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Island[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Looking forward to rejoining the ranks of control and hoping I can contribute something worthwhile to the discussion.

You absolutely must run 4 Tops in this deck. It is by far the best card. Having Top in play increases your chances of winning by a ridiculous percentage.

[Dzra]

How comes few play 4 terminus?

Some eschew the fourth Terminus for a Supreme Verdict for various reasons, uncounterability, cmc, Blue, etc.

[Einherjer]

Some eschew the fourth Terminus for a Supreme Verdict for various reasons, uncounterability, cmc, Blue, etc.

Plus I just don't feel like losing more games than necessary due to having more than 6 Miracles in my deck.

Greetings

[UB Control]

To Teveshszat:
Yes, We are control players, so We respond to their actions - so they have to worry what our respond will be!

To twndomn
„The beauty of Miracle is that we don't care if you drop a TNN or a Spirit or a 20/20 token, they all just die to mass removal. Until DnT starts to dominate the format using the Spirit, there's no point being hysterical about it.”
That is just the way I think!

To Einherjer
Good luck in Paris! Unfortunatelly for personal reasons I can’t go (:

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

To Teveshszat:
Yes, We are control players, so We respond to their actions - so they have to worry what our respond will be!

To twndomn
„The beauty of Miracle is that we don't care if you drop a TNN or a Spirit or a 20/20 token, they all just die to mass removal. Until DnT starts to dominate the format using the Spirit, there's no point being hysterical about it.”
That is just the way I think!

Ah yes ok that a toal diffenrent view. For me control mean rendering all their possible actions to disturb our gameplan useless and disturb their gameplan so that they never ahd a chane to win in
the firstplace. To be inactive and only react to a situation is not what I think is realy helpfull to achiev the stiuation above.

For my question with the needles I still think that is one of the better ways to deal with the incresement of DnT deck through SotL.
I my list I will exchange the 3rd spellsnare, because needle get me a solution for more threats that I can´t handle otherwise like
Academy Ruins, Stronhold, Depths and other stuff, and move the moat to the sideboard because I think we have engough sweeper
to deal with the most forms of aggro and if not I can board moat in at my second round.
The 2 needles main are engough to find the one I need against vial, equipment, sneak/show and other planeswalker.
I think its worth a try even without the Tutor and is more mana effiecent then EE which can only hit the
vial and CmC 2 creatures in my current build but against creatures we have massremoval and EE don´t solve the
problem of a resolved planeswalker if we don´t have creatures or counters at hand.
Another plus is that a needle willnot be dead to the Counterbalance mechanic and I don´t have to splash
a color or to to maximize the card effectivness which I have to do with 2 colors for EE and 1 for
most other artifact hates.

I think this change is needed to pay tribute to the changing of the meta which will favor white/x vial decks and other white hatebear decks
with addtional board mana and handcontrol abilities. But why should that card be in the main? The reason is most of the time
you will board it in, if you have it at your SB, at game 2 anyway to deal with things like planeswalkers or vials and multiple equipment
anyway. Yes you can argue we have disenchant for it but things like a recurring Acedmy ruin, depths and other lands we
can´t kill are just to anyoing to rely on one sulution only in the case of equipment and for reurring lands on rst in peace which a only 2 each.
That is reasoned by the thinking that we can be dsiturbed and not finding anything in time cause we only play 3 copies (2+ enlighted)
for the peace and 2 for(+dismantling blow or Wear/Tear in main) and so for me the possibility to not find an answer in time is
just to high expecialy for equipment and land activations.

So yes you can call me paranoid again but I like it more to be prepared for siuations which don´t occur then being in a situation
for which I am not prepared and losing cause I did not think twice which situations are possible.

Best Regards Teveshszat