Stop it, you're building Deadguy :P
Originally Posted by Acclimation
I was thinking about reevaluating Zealous Persecution over Golgari Charm again, as it not only allows us to shoot enemy TNNs, but also protect our bobs and spirits from TNN hate. Note however, that spirit is an enhancement creature, so it will still die to Charms and other disenchant effects.
i still think that the versatility of golgari charm will allways outvalue the possibility of not killing your own bob or maybe lingering souls tokens
golgari charm is strong enough to even warrant a MD slot for some people
i will for sure stick to golgari charm,.... i have tested both and golgari charm feels better first for its manacost which is easier to achieve and second for its immense versatility
I tested Spirit of the Labyrinth yesterday in:
1. Standard GW-Maverick
2. Junk Maverick
3. DeadGuyAle (with Vial)
against
1. Patriot
2. Esper TNN-Blade
3. RUG Delver
and i have to say: I expected more of it. I made ~ 50 testgames, which might mean nothing, but overall SotL failed at what it was supposed to do. The dilemma: You want to deploy SotL fast enough to profit from it which means it should come down T2. This also means it will most likely be killed by your opponents first removal. SotL didn't stop one Brainstorm in my testgames, but rather acted as a lightning rod. When I waited to cast SotL a few turns later, most of the cantrips were allready played and it's effect was minimal.
I have to test it further more against Griselbrand and Omnitell decks though.
I currently play jund in legacy but I want to play junk too. I pretty much have everything that I need. Is there any reason people aren't running vindicate anymore? I have always liked vindicate but I just can't tell if I am playing it because I like it or because it deserves a slot.
Vindicate can't destroy multiple copies of non-land permanents while maelstrom pulse can't destroy a land (not so impressive atm I think) which in my list I run 2 pulse along side 3 decay and 4 stp. It is up to you if you will run vindicate or other removals other than decay and plowshares.
vindicate is a strong card, that is simply a fact
but when u play with vindicate you will probably soon notice on what permanents you are primeraly using them on
it will highly depend on your build and playstyle if vindicate deserves a slot over maelstrom pulse or other available removal
in the old "dark horizon"-builds it deserved a slot because the gameplan was tempooriented with together with hymn and knight as a wasteland-tutor.
if your hymn grabed 2 lands of opponents hand and you had a vindicate in hand that he could not counter you pretty much won the game with killing his only remaining land, and you could keep him from ever getting into the game by using knight to search for multiple wastelands (this play was specially powerfull because we used mox diamonds at that time)
you should playtest with vindicate a lot more i think.... with time you will see if other options like maelstrom pulse, liliana of the veil, abrupt decay(which you should be using anyway).... are more the things you want for this slot
Well I definitely run abrupt decay already and Lilianas. I only have pulse as a one of in my jund but it rarely ever feels like the chaining off matters. I know there are certain situations where it would be amazing but sometimes I'd rather just blow up a land with vindicate. I have a rough build I've been using on trice But junk in general feels like it had to many good cards to tweak. The jund lists feel very stock and I don't have to do much.
Yesterday I got to Maelstrom Pulse away 3 Lord of Atlantis (one actual Lord, 2 Phantasmal Images). It was hilarious.
I also went 3-2 in a Legacy side event at GP Vancouver, losing VERY narrowly to Pox on Turn 5 of turns, and lost to a topdeck Submerge out of Merfolk in game 3 when I stabilized at 1 life.
-Matt
matt, may i ask what your current list looks like
i am curious because i myself have little to no time to play magic at all currently due to my diploma-thesis, and my list is probably quite outdated (pre-TNN... meaning there are still lingering souls in MD)
and i know you will probably still run some GSZ in your list, which i do not really want to remove from my list
for reference (and hopefully some advice how to adapt my list to the TNN-field)
23 lands (3 wastelands, 1 horizon canopy, 2 dryad arbor, 1 karakas, 3 basics, 8 fetches, 5 duals... shocklands)
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
3 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 sylvan library
2 liliana of the veil
3 Green sun's zenith
2 lingering souls
4 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
SB:
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler /ethersworn canonist (could maybe be replaced by the new anti-draw-spirit)
2 pernicious deed
2 golgari charm
3 extirpate (i prefer uncounterability)
2 umezawas jitte (my list hast quite a lot of lifeloss, plus i see these as extraremoval and a way to gain advantage in the midrange-matchups, even without SFM)
1 flex slot (currently life from the loam)
i have been thinking a lot about tombstalker, elspeth, and obviously quasali pridemage
thanks in advance for your help :P
EDIT: i even thought of replacing Dark Confidant with SFM for a Batterskull and Jitte MD
Running:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Ooze
1 Qasali
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana
2 GSZ
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
3 Sylvan Library
4 Decay
3 STP
23 Lands
2 Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pulse
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
1 Scavenging Ooze
-Matt
I feel like I still want to be playing more Pulses, more Goyfs and Knights, and more Loxodon Smiters, but there's just NO room...
-Matt
Woah that's my list, currently this is my MDI feel like I still want to be playing more Pulses, more Goyfs and Knights, and more Loxodon Smiters, but there's just NO room...
-Matt
Creatures:
4 deathrite
4 bob
4 goyf
3 loxodon smiter
2 KOTR
1 thrun
Removals:
2 pulse
3 decay
4 swords
4 liliana
I don't have any sfm packages even in my SB. But I have an option "if" people in my country tend to move into TNN decks and Sneak attack decks approaches zero I will remove my KOTR and trim some liliana and removals to fit in SFM packages. At the moment I can't say.
i am wondering how your discard package looks like, and what kind of library manipulation you are runningWoah that's my list, currently this is my MD
Creatures:
4 deathrite
4 bob
4 goyf
3 loxodon smiter
2 KOTR
1 thrun
Removals:
2 pulse
3 decay
4 swords
4 liliana
I don't have any sfm packages even in my SB. But I have an option "if" people in my country tend to move into TNN decks and Sneak attack decks approaches zero I will remove my KOTR and trim some liliana and removals to fit in SFM packages. At the moment I can't say.
I went 6-3 to finish 53rd today at scg baltimore with a couple last minute changes to my list ill edit with my matchups, win/loss, and as much as I can remember/decipher from what I have written down.
I'll also be testing this list in the near future when I have some time. The 20/20 plan seems REALLY good at ignoring True Name. I think Mox Diamond is a dead draw so much of the time, so I've mucked it. Chalice is good, but I think when you gain 20 life, you're fine with that since you just go again with Loam.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze/Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridgemage
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Revoker
What sparked this is was during the tournament today, Knight was insanely good when he was good, and just awful when he was staring down Deathrites and Rest in Peaces. However, turning into a 10/10 against RUG and then smashing face was amazing. So, on the advice of some Sourcers at the GP, I've drafted this Junk Depths list.
Again, no Moxen since the acceleration is good but it's still awful since you can cram other good stuff in instead of 25 lands. No chalice since gaining 20 life is good times, and that's not your only plan.
No Goyf since I don't draw dead against Rest in Peace.
Stoneforge into SoFaI is your main or backup against True Name and other fair decks. In case assembling the 20/20 is too cumbersome, just crush with SFM.
Sylvans are too good to not include, Loams for abusing Knight, Crop Rotation for dodging Wastelands or getting Wastelands. Living Wish fetches pieces and answers like a good midrange deck should. The deck still runs 7 pieces of removal for the Painter decks, Blade decks, etc. With both SFM and Dark Depths, you should have a really good shot at beating most of the blade decks and/or TNN decks. Elves should be FINE since you technically have SFM --> Jitte, but in case it isn't good enough, you can go fetch Teeg to stop Natural Order and board into Cages against the graveyard based decks preying on the hate slots being turned into TNN hate slots.
Each sideboard card except Cage is relevant to the metagame for the Wish package. Depths, Stage, and Hexmage all assemble the combo in some way. Teeg is there for combo, Elves, Dredge, etc. You board one in, leave one to Wish for. Canonist for Combo. Thalia for Combo. Sylvan Safekeeper can be used to set up a protected Equipped creature or a 20/20 much like Chalice, but with less fuss. Plus, it can fuel huge Knights if you can't get the combo online. It also helps hedge against Submerge. Tutorable Ooze is for the graveyard based decks, and Qasali deals with Equipment, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge.
Karakas is there for Show and Tell, and Revoker hits Jace, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Equipment, Liliana, Deathrite, etc.
I'm not saying this is the RIGHT way to do Junk, but it significantly improves your TNN matchup. Thoughts?
-Matt
I would play at least one Sensei´s top in the main deck to get the shuffle effects working more efficently. You can look for the combo pieces more than once a turn. I would also add one wasteland to the sideboard to get with Living Wish. You dont need multiple copies of Teeg in the side in my opinion. I also think that this is propably the best way to build a junk deck right now. Dark Depths seems strong against many decks.
at the moment this is my discards MD
2 hymn
4 thoughtseize
About library manipulation, NONE
Traditional problem with Living Wish is of course if it isn't too slow. Fetching a combo piece is fine (even if you still risk timewalking yourself), but wish for Thalia / Gaddock against combo, post-board included, does not seem viable. You can opt to take out all wishes for hatebears, but still, this list has even worse combo matchup than we are used to. That is, excluding s'n't, as wishing for t2 karakas (with shaman) can be game against them.
This comes mostly from experience with playing Burning Wish, but when we wish, we need to wish for game ending card. Wishing for DD or Karakas is hence fine. However, if we wish for Qasali Pridamage or Revorker on Deathrite we are likely ending up behind. I think those cards could be replaced with narrower but more definite wish bombs (Bojuka Bog? Orzhov Pontiff?) or 'traditional' sideboard cards to help combo matchup. When we are at sideboard- maybe having both Thespian Stage and Hexmage as wish targets is a bit redundant?
You say no goyfs as you don't want to draw dead against RiP, yet list 'abusing knights' as main reason to include Loams. This doesn't seem plausible, especially without maze. With no GY hate knighst are good on their own, and with it, Loam isn't going to help. Sure, Loam can assemble a wastelock or recover destroyed combo pieces. I just don't feel like it has good interactions with kotr. And between 3 Living Wish, 1 Crop Rotation, 2 Loams and 4 knighst fetching, maybe this list is a bit heavy on stuff that doesn't do too much when we run into a deck that doesn't care what we do with our lands, like Miracles?
Those are just initial thoughts. Please let us know your testing results.
I mean, if you can postulate a better list for me to test, feel free. I'm just looking to find a solid Junk Depths list.
-Matt
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