[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Dragonslayer_90]

I've been wondering whether thoughtseize would be a better MD discard spell since SFM and Griselbrand decks make a good portion of the general meta. Thoughtseize is more consistent against Stoneforge and hymn doesn't seem as good against sneak and show and reanimator since they are mostly two card combo decks so there's always a risk of not hitting the cards that matter than against critical mass combo decks like storm. Or is Hymn just better for the deck's MD game plan? Thoughts? I know Dan Signorini has played Thoughtseize as the MD discard spell in previous iterations of Team America when the meta calls for it.

[KobeBryan]

I've been wondering whether thoughtseize would be a better MD discard spell since SFM and Griselbrand decks make a good portion of the general meta. Thoughtseize is more consistent against Stoneforge and hymn doesn't seem as good against sneak and show and reanimator since they are mostly two card combo decks so there's always a risk of not hitting the cards that matter than against critical mass combo decks like storm. Or is Hymn just better for the deck's MD game plan? Thoughts? I know Dan Signorini has played Thoughtseize as the MD discard spell in previous iterations of Team America when the meta calls for it.

What I hate hymn the most is I cannot cast both hymn and goyf on turn 2. With thoughtseize, i can do that.

[Cire_dk]

What I hate hymn the most is I cannot cast both hymn and goyf on turn 2. With thoughtseize, i can do that.

That is true, but playing a goyf on turn 2 might not be that good anyway since goyf is still very small and can be hit by many things. Disrupting their hand is always usefull even if you o not hit their combo pieces. A Goyf does not help at all against combo. To me Hymn has been good again sneak and show and other combo decks.

[pandaman]

By the time Goyf is ready to swing, there will likely be a land (fetch), sorcery (Thoughtseize), and an instant (some cantrip or counterspell), as well as whatever you took with Thoughtseize, so you are in a place where you have taken their most significant card (or forced them to burn a counter to stop it) and have a probable 4/5 beater. From that position, Goyf, coupled with DRS activations, could become a 3 turn clock. Not too shabby, and a clock like that is always welcome against combo.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Manipulato]

Hey sourcers,
I played RUG the last couple of months but now I wanna switch to the dark side of tempo
I playtested yesterday the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catcacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Disfigure
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library

I know its a unusual list but I think TNN is a bit more consistent than Stalker especially because Im not so focused on the BB manabase (another reason why I prefer Thoughtseize over Hymn). I like Stalker and he's much faster but you have to board him out a lot because of RIP, Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb, sure some people will board Charm against me but I think the advantage of TNN is bigger than the ones of Stalker. Upping the U count is quite nice too because of FoW.
I think Thoughtseize is in the current meta better than Hymn because I can get rid of Equipment for sure and I dont have to poker or get lucky. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf/Delver or something is also very nice.
19 Lands could be a bit too risky/low but without Lili/Hymn/Stalker MB it should be enough. But will test it.

I tested until now against Sneak Show with 4:3 and against Raffinity with 3:1.
Thoughtseize was great against Sneak Show and picked everytime a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and the lost games were because of bad hands( not enough creatures to build pressure or manascrewing) or my opponent topdecked a combo piece.
Golgari Charm were bonkers against him, take BG in response then destroy Blood Moon or Sneak Attack or Leyline of Sanctity were great.
Pithing needle is maybe interesting in the board against Top or Sneak and a copy of Krosan Grip against Batterskull etc.

Hope to get input from you guys.

[spector14]

Hey sourcers,
I played RUG the last couple of months but now I wanna switch to the dark side of tempo
I playtested yesterday the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catcacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Disfigure
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library

I know its a unusual list but I think TNN is a bit more consistent than Stalker especially because Im not so focused on the BB manabase (another reason why I prefer Thoughtseize over Hymn). I like Stalker and he's much faster but you have to board him out a lot because of RIP, Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb, sure some people will board Charm against me but I think the advantage of TNN is bigger than the ones of Stalker. Upping the U count is quite nice too because of FoW.
I think Thoughtseize is in the current meta better than Hymn because I can get rid of Equipment for sure and I dont have to poker or get lucky. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf/Delver or something is also very nice.
19 Lands could be a bit too risky/low but without Lili/Hymn/Stalker MB it should be enough. But will test it.

I tested until now against Sneak Show with 4:3 and against Raffinity with 3:1.
Thoughtseize was great against Sneak Show and picked everytime a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and the lost games were because of bad hands( not enough creatures to build pressure or manascrewing) or my opponent topdecked a combo piece.
Golgari Charm were bonkers against him, take BG in response then destroy Blood Moon or Sneak Attack or Leyline of Sanctity were great.
Pithing needle is maybe interesting in the board against Top or Sneak and a copy of Krosan Grip against Batterskull etc.

Hope to get input from you guys.

Hello "manipulato"! Also I think as you do about TNN, then with all the W-based application that is lately is definitely worth trying! I prefer to have the fourth Goyf instead of the second and also disfigure, whereas in the current meta we could find many germs butterskull or mirror with a stalker, I prefer mono dismember! What do you think?

[Manipulato]

Normally I would play 2 Dismember MB & 2 Disfigure SB but with 4 Thoughtseize MD I think the life loss could be too high for my taste. For Game 2+3 we have 2 Lilis in the SB + 2 additional Disfigure to stop SFM or BS or Stalker so it should not that big problem.
4 Goyf 2 TNN would work too but TNN with DS is just that sweet that I want 3 at the moment.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Went 4-0-1 in the swiss rounds today for 1st/27, then won my Top8 match against Affinity and split Top4 with a stock list with dual Liliana main.

SB was:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit (have to get it altered for Creeping Tapir)
1 Surgical Extraction (did not have a real chance to test it, would have been better off as needle maybe, though i did not play against combo)
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique (could be another one in the 75)

My matches were:
2-0 against Canadian
2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Miracles
2-1 against Deathblade
ID with Sneak
2-1 against Affinity in the Top8 to top 4 Split.

I am still etremely pleased with the deck, nothing i'd like to change actually. The maindeck Lilianas are amazing, Tombstalker decided to bot get cast today, but he still has a lot of credit from previous tournements for me, where he wrapped up games like a boss. Delver wasn't amazing either, but he is still necessary ;).

Envelop won me game 2 against Miracles, solid card, same is true for Tar Pit in the midrange matches.

I might try to play 2 Cliques in the Tombstalker spot maybe, but i am not sure if it is actually needed.

[Kowitz]

Hey Everyone! I have been playing this deck for a few weeks now. I usually play TES, but I wanted to also have a fair deck to play, and this was my choice. So far, I absolutely love this deck, maybe more so then storm. I was the only 5-0 at the end of a 5 round legacy event last night. There was no cut to top 8. I played this list. Stock list -1 Abrupt Decay and the flex spots are 2 Lili, 1 sylvan in place of the decay. And 4 verdants, because I didn't have the 3rd delta.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catcacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendilion Clique

My matches were:

Rd1: Burn
Rd2: Miracles
Rd3: Death and Taxes
Rd4: Manaless Dredge
Rd5: UWR Delver


I have been playing around with the sideboard, and last night, I cut the 3rd golgari charm and a maelstrom pulse for a krosan grip and the 2nd Grafdiggers cage. Which I feel like was a very solid choice. I'm very happy with the deck for now!!

[Grand Superior]

Two copies of Team America in the top 8 of the SCG Open. Jeremy Hsu (featured on camera earlier) and Bob Huang (akatsuki on the Source). Let's wish them luck and hopefully one of them wins it for Team America!

[deviant]

2 ta in the scg open top8.
Looking promising for akatsuki :)

Also, grats for both. Pity that hatfield turned down the delight of being 3rd TA in the top8 :(

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ran the standard list to a top 8 TCG IQ. Around 50 people. The deck felt unbeatable when it drew well, but I did have some awkws draws.

Round 1: Esper deathblade 2-0. He mulls to 6 game 1, I have 2 wastelands. Game 2 he draws no action and I daze a batterskull.
Round 2: Elves 2-1. Game 1 he gets stranded with Hoof and Regal force in hand. Game 2 he runs me over. Game 3 I have turn 2 liliana. Damn that planeswalker is good.
Round 3: BUG Devler 0-2. Game 1 he has goyf and deathrite advantage. Game 2 I take a risk and surgical his underground sea. He rips two lands in a row and CRUSHES me.
Round 4: BUG Delver 2-1. Game 1 he beats me pretty badly with a baleful strix and eventually pulls through with a tombstalker. Game 2 I draw 4 wastelands (3 in opener!). Game 3 I get an active liliana, which wins me the game.
Round 5: Sam Black Zombies 2-0. Game 1 I have double goyf and FoW/Daze back up. Game 2 I blow him out with a golgari charm hitting gravecrawler, dark confidant, and bloodghast. Dems da breaks.
Round 6: ID

And we chop the top 8.

I hated tombstalker all day and will likely be replacing them with more lilianas/cliques.

['Nilla Pac]

2 ta in the scg open top8.
Looking promising for akatsuki :)

Also, grats for both. Pity that hatfield turned down the delight of being 3rd TA in the top8 :(

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

[H]

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

Yeah, I would have attacked the turn before, where he played the Tombstalker. What does he have that can remove Tombstalker as a blocker? Putting him at 1 takes him off using a fetch too, in case we wanted to. I also think I would have Wasted the Stage, not the Grove, but I am not 100% sure that is right.

[deviant]

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

And the chances of winning go down faster than justin bieber in public prison.

Hopefully akatsuki will write a report of that open.
Also, go Hsu!!

[Razorwynd]

Ran the standard list to a top 8 TCG IQ. Around 50 people. The deck felt unbeatable when it drew well, but I did have some awkws draws.

Round 3: BUG Devler 0-2. Game 1 he has goyf and deathrite advantage. Game 2 I take a risk and surgical his underground sea. He rips two lands in a row and CRUSHES me.

I hated tombstalker all day and will likely be replacing them with more lilianas/cliques.

It was a CRUSHING! I played the Thoughtseize/TNN variant (4-1-1), and was not overly impressed with TNN. Game ones TNN was OK, I always sided them out in anticipation of hate. Such a plan was moderately successful. I could see this slot (TNN/Tombstalker) easily being Cliques/Lilianas/Disfigures. I was overly impressed by Thoughtseize for what it is worth.

[Manipulato]

Do you guys really find Hymn better than Thoughtseize in that slot? It would be great to hear your experiences in the past, especially if you guys replace that hymn with Thoughtseize mentally in past games...
In my opinion Hymn is much more of a Midrange/Value card and TA is more of an Tempo deck which Thoughtseize probably fits better. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf, or Turn 1 DS + Turn 2 Seize + Goyf/Decay or whatever sound really nice to have and it will always pick the most important card in the opponents hand + it gives you the really important information about his hand (like Gitaxian Probe).

By the way: How many games did you guys won with Tombstalker where TNN would have lost the games? Would be interesting to know because I´m currently testing TNN vs Stalker.

Greetings

[Grand Superior]

For me, Hymn is just backbreaking against almost every deck and making them discard lands really helps the tempo game. I also agree with those that say that Thoughtseize is just a bit too polite for what we're trying to do, whereas Hymn's two-for-one can just straight out win games. There are some situations when Thoughtseize is better (such as against Batterskull or Show and Tell) but I prefer keeping Thoughtseize for postboard games against those decks as supplemental disruption.

And I prefer Tombstalker over True-Name Nemesis simply because Golgari Charm is a fantastic sideboard card right now and running Tombstalker lets you make it one-sided. Running TNN also makes double-black awkward, which makes it harder to cast incredible cards like Liliana of the Veil and Hymn. TNN does make you less reliant on the graveyard and ups your blue count for Force of Will, but I think Tombstalker is the way to go.

[Manipulato]

For me, Hymn is just backbreaking against almost every deck and making them discard lands really helps the tempo game. I also agree with those that say that Thoughtseize is just a bit too polite for what we're trying to do, whereas Hymn's two-for-one can just straight out win games. There are some situations when Thoughtseize is better (such as against Batterskull or Show and Tell) but I prefer keeping Thoughtseize for postboard games against those decks as supplemental disruption.

And I prefer Tombstalker over True-Name Nemesis simply because Golgari Charm is a fantastic sideboard card right now and running Tombstalker lets you make it one-sided. Running TNN also makes double-black awkward, which makes it harder to cast incredible cards like Liliana of the Veil and Hymn. TNN does make you less reliant on the graveyard and ups your blue count for Force of Will, but I think Tombstalker is the way to go.

You have to board out Stalker against some decks too because of RIP, against decks where I expect Charm to see you board him out too. But for example against UWR (which is very popular right now) you can let TNN in and should Stalker board out. Against decks like elves you can cut TNN and bring in Charms and against Esperblade Stalker can get hosed by Jace bounce, STP or RIP where TNN only gets killed by Zealous Persecution. So its a tight race between them...

I played a bit and even with 3 TNN I think the U count in the deck is with 20 cards (23 with TNN) very small, so FoW gets a bit worse (maybe I´m a bit spoiled as a RUG Delver player ).
I dont want to play that deck to clunky and more tempo like. Will test 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Disfigure in the 4 Hymn 2 Lili slot a bit. But maybe I will come back and play the mainstream list because I was wrong

[Thorhammer]

Congrats to Jeremy and Bob on the top 8 finish! Interesting sideboard there. Sylvan to the board and more grips and Cliques for less charms. And no cage? Hoping to just dodge the elves, dredge and reanimator? I'm excited to read a report!