First of all I gotta say that I am proud that people have finally overcome the stage where they thought black was a sufficiently good splash color. That's something.
So now we are where we were when you last posted your initially flawed analysis between UW and UWR - but we've discussed this already, didn't we?
I agree with you that the approch of a dual-card like REB/Fluster doesn't work that well in our archetypes as they do in Combo or Tempo, where you can weigh the up- and downsides between let's say a Preordain and a Chain Lightning or an additional Duress, whatsoever. I have to agree with you, that you really have to keep in mind that a splashcolor adds to a worse manabase. Worse sounds so hard, it really does. It's not bad, it's just (a little) worse. Anyways - my current manabase...
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
//1 Mountain Sideboard
...should be worse than yours. Still it baffles me that you are even playing less shuffleeffects than I do - in a Brainstorm/Top/Ponder-deck...? Doesn't sound good, if you ask me. Especially if your manabase does not have to sustain the strains of a triplecolored one. There is no doubt, that UW has a more stable manabase, don't get me wrong. What I wanna say, is that the upsides outweigh the downsides by a far. (you don't say "afar" in this context, do you?) Okay, let us break it down once again, shall we?
While straight UW provides the player with a more stable and consistent way or putting down (the right) lands and producing mana as they wish, they lack certain abilities, certain possibilities. Yes, plain UW might have the tools to handle everything, like Spell Pierce can counter Jace, and O-Ring can remove it - but at the cost of both, effectiveness and elegance. This Statement is made under the pure assumption that we judge the cards by what they can(!) do, leaving aside the aspect of castability. When looking at it from this angle there is really no reason not to use additional colors (Captain Obvious, I know.) but it is important that we agree on this one. If you still think that UW handles all the problems well enough, and that Reds additions are useless I failed to make my point and the discussion is hereby ended. If you do agree on the fact that REB (and that's what it's mostly about) is really good in both, Legacy in general and the current metagame I beg you to stay with me.
It all boils down to one certain aspect, to one certain equation. Power : Consistency. When I started Legacy I was taught alot of wrong stuff, but one sentence, wrong or right sticked in my memory. "In Legacy, there is no reason not to splash a color." - While nobody can convice me that this sentence is true by its very being it holds some truth in it, for sure. There is no format, where splashing an additional color is so easy. All we do is cram in a few Dual-lands, and maybe one Basic and that's it. Our fully automatic Fetchland-Manabase handles all those additional strains with ease. Well, a year ago I would have claimed, that splashing a third color does put us in danger, but was still worth it. This danger back then was threatened by the most played and best positioned deck of all times. Good old Canadian Threshold. Featuring a full set of Stifles alongside Wastelands made it tougher to sustain a threecolor-base in such a climate. And yet I did choose to bring UWR to any event I was bringing Miracles too. (which was pretty much every single one, in any way) But things have changed, and not for the worse, I dare to say. Patriot has taken over RUGs number1-seat and is hereby the most played deck (at the moment) and Legacys prime Tempodeck. It's no bad deck, don't get me wrong - but it's way worse against Miracles than RUG was. Obviously RUG is still present and far from dead, but it's not number one any more. With Patriot abandoning Stifle adding a third color became much less of a risk - putting me into the position to board in a full set of Blasts against this deck, which relies on Wasteland to hinder my color-development - what a pitty I play a Mountain though, right?
Additionally to REB Red offers plenty of other options(!) too, ranging from Sulfur Elemental and Blood Moon to Wear//Tear. Let's stick with the latest. Yes, Wear//Tear is a Disenchant most of the time, which sometimes forces us to fetch for Red, which is bad - no things to be said about that. But, it does more than Disenchant and yet illustrates the very clear difference between UW and UWR - while Disenchant is a good card for what it's meant to deal with, Wear//Tear is more powerful(!), but yet more difficult to cast (consistency). Why is Wear//Tear more powerful, one might ask? Well, I'll bring a few examples not everybody might have in mind - and if you do - skip this short part.
1) Wear//Tearing Counterbalance and Top, forcing the opponent to flip Top and making Counterbalances life harder by forcing it to reveal a cc3.
2) Killing Spirit of the Labyrinth(ion?), alongside its Equipment.
3) Disenchanting an enchantment for W only.
You see, no big deals, but yet subtle superior, for the cost of consistency.
Yes, we have had the REB-discussion already but I'll bring it up again, in a kind of shot fashion.
Straight UW has the possibilities to counter Show and Tell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and True Name Nemesis - but it does not have a card which covers all those three angles at once - which REB does. Here again, we got the equation of power vs consistency. Yes, you can answer all those cards within your blue and white horizon, but the stronger and more versatile answer lies beyond it, in the realms of red. But we've had this already, right? So if somebody wants to discuss this in detail, hit me up.
Summing up - it all comes down on which side of the power-consistency-spectrum you want to be. Clearly the red realms offer the best and most versatile answers, yet it all has a price, which is consistency. I am still under the opinion that red it really worth it, and that the elegenace of REB can't be found in any other card, which alone is reason enough for me to play it.
Looking forward to your response(s).
Oh, and Red Elemental Blast counters Brainstorm, just sayin'.
Greetings
TNN is just an overcosted Goose that can be equipped. If we were able to handle goose, we don't need REB to handle TNN.
I do not like going three colors for control. The benefits don't outweigh the risks. DnT is seeing more play and Patriot versions of True Blade run 4 Wasteland. The threat of being kept off mana/colors you need for spells is far more damaging than a sneaky fish.
The choices of U/W, U/W/r, RIP-Helm, Flash are all metagame choices. Consistency is much more important right now.
This.Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
--
EDIT:
I've kept a SB Mountain for a while and it was actually okay. In retrospect it seems like too much of a concession just to have reliable ressources for 4 SB spells. With red gone I certainly value that SB slot.
I don't think it's wise to overly simplify such contexts, though you indirectly pay dues to the complexity by using vague phrases and repeating yourself instead of providing actual arguments. No offense, but your post could easily be half as long, while providing more to the point input.
Moons have disappeared from most Miracle SBs for a reason and Disenchant is actually on par with W/T if you deduct the downsides of the red splash. There was a post 1-2 pages back of someone stating he's fused W/T once ever since he added it to his SB...same here. REB is the sole reason most players splash red these days.
It's actually debatable whether "counters/destroys blue spell/permanent" is more versatile than "counter ANY non-creature spell during the early game and early midgame"
Stating "elegance" as part of your motivation to splash sounds a bit like danger of cool things, but I'll give you that REB's artwork is actually lovely.
You'd be surprised how often I pull this off with Pierce and Flusterstorm (given my opponent has a fetchland up) - without splashing
At the end of the day this whole splash business is a meta call, and for me there are (still) way too many Wastelands running around to be going back to
Last edited by klaus; 01-26-2014 at 12:51 PM.
REB is there for other Jace decks and because we have it already in the SB we can board 1-2 against other blue decks with Wastelands and Combo Decks.
That's the main reason to play a red splash. Maybe other reasons will come back, when 12 Post starts to become a good deck we may need Blood Moon or when Maverick makes a huge comeback with some new goodies we may play Pyroclasm again, but now i think it's only for other Jace decks mainly. you get a huge advantage there.
REB is not needed against Tempo. you can play 1-2 because you already have them in the board.
Fetching red, blue and white and being happy about the basic mountain so that you can play 4 cards out of your SB is not good when you need at some point double W for Supreme Verdict or Double U for Counterbalance etc.
I play 2 Volcanics in the main, 3 REB in the SB and no Wear/Tear but Disenchant. Yeah Wear/Tear is superior but i don't like it when i need Red against Death and Taxes/ Patriot.
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Rather than try to compare it to Pierce/Flusterstorm, I think it is more apt to compare it to Counterspell. Pierce/Flusterstorm lose value so quickly in this deck. Our goal in every single game it to progress the game to a point where soft counters are bad; Counterspell and REB both keep their full value as the game goes long.
Counterspell:
+ You need two Blue mana to function anyways.
+ Counters non-Blue spells also.
- Costs two mana.
- Cannot kill an already resolved Delver or Jace.
Ironically, against Tempo decks, costing two mana might actually negate the fact that you don't need to fetch Red.
Anyways, I don't particularly care for these comparisons in the first place since I've already convinced myself of REB's worth; however, at least pick the right comparison. I really don't believe Pierce works very well in this deck (unless you just expect a ton of ritual-based combo decks).
Hello,
In myopionion consistency is one of the basic pillars you need as a control deck to actually do your job in
disturbing the enemy game plan until you can execute yours. The reason behind this is that a control deck has to make
shure that the opponent canīt realy threaten it at any point of the game. So a splash would be a unecassary weakness
to this approach.
Yes red enables some good soultions for different problems and the ReB is a very cost effient and versatile solution
to some problems our deck have like fithing other Jaces or beating TNN.
But for TNN we allready have removal so yes you can counter it but the real problem is not the 3/1 its the equipment
it carries and this canīt be countered by an REB.
for other Jaces we can play Oblivion Ring which is also a very flexible card and has the advantage
of bosting the CB with a CMC of 3 which we only have otherwise with clique.
With wear/ tear there are Moments it can do what a Disenchant canīt but that is not the
majority of the moment and considering that you get a huge risk here considering you donīt allways
have the color safe it is not realy worth the risk.
So here I think disenchant is the better option or if you like cardadvantage in the late dismantling blow which
also gives us a CMC 3 for CB.
For Combo Decks we can have Flusterstorm and for things like Show and tell we can use needles, which a a very fleible card too,
for the sneak and CB, Venser, Karakas. moat and Counterspells for Show and Tell.
For other Jace decks you can use needles too, if you board your Jaces out or use Orings, Spheres Counter and CB if you play
Verdict in addtion to you Jace,.
This is wrong. UW has a card which covers all three angles in our deck, which runs CB and its the O Ring. THe O Ring canOriginally Posted by Einherjer
Straight UW has the possibilities to counter Show and Tell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and True Name Nemesis but it does not have a card which covers all those three angles at once
counter TNN and Show and Tell when shown by a Counterbalance and removes Jace when actually played. Yes you need CB to
make this angle cover happen but the two cards have such a high synergy that the rsult is better for then adding REB.
I think you can safley play Oblivionrings and solve the most problems which canīt be covered by other cards we allready playing
with them ( counter TNN, deal with other Jaces, counter Show and Tell, deal qith equipment) and Needles ( Equipment, Sneak Attack,
Vial, other Planeswalker, Recurring Lands, kandrelabra etc) which would be solved by REB but get some advantages like a better
CMC Counterbalance curve increased consistency and some solved problems which REB canīt solve ( Stone Forge Mystic or Equipment) too.
This desicion worries my a lot. If I donīt need a SB card in a matchup because my Maindeck covers allOriginally Posted by Adryan
REB is not needed against Tempo. you can play 1-2 because you already have them in the board.
allready i donīt board it in. If it is only nice to have i donīt waste a slot in my main for it cause most of the
time its not realy necessary. So I actually board them in against Tempo and for the other decks
white blue has other potent solutions. The consequence is I donīt want to threaten my very consistent
Manabase with a red splash for REB.
I donīt think so because you can just lay down or fetch another non wastetable Island more often then you can safely fetchOriginally posted by Draza
Ironically, against Tempo decks, costing two mana might actually negate the fact that you don't need to fetch Red.
or lay down a volcanic. For the mountain itīs the possibilty you can fetch it in time what it makes it less solid then Counterspell
because all but 2 of our fecthlands are blue but only 6 are red ( scarlding and mesa) and since Islands and Plains have
higher priority for a stable manabase you donīt want to fetch a mountain so early.
So all in all I think only looking for potenial power and possible effiency without considering castability and constency
is not the right way which is the reason for me to play UW and not UWR.
Best Regards
Teveshszat
Won a pair of Byes for Paris yesterday. Shall write something up with my list and stuff in case anyone cares.
R1: Burn (Vs my friend Jack), R2: UWR Delver, R3: Elves (draw), R4: Nic Fit, R5: ID, T8: Nic Fit (Concession), T4: ID, T2: S/T.
Almost went unbeaten, but I played out the T8 Vs Nic Fit and died. Same opponent I played in Swiss. It was not close. I'll write up a full list, but it was a double E-Tutor list with RiP, Humility, Counterspell, and Blood Moon. If there's anything I could swap the Pyroclasm in the board for I would cut the Moon for B2B at this point, but I'm not sure.
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Congrats! And I'd like to hear a report. I'm especially interested in the UWR Delver match and the Nic Fit match that you lost. In my experience, Nic Fit has almost been a can't-possibly-lose sort of MU.
We have a so called Legacy League which consists of five separate events. One event in a month. Yesterday we had our last competition. The result of each event adds together and there will be a top 8 of the Legacy League. I am now on the 4th place.
One can participate with different decks on the different events. I played 2 times Miracle control 2 times MonoU Omni-Tell and once Esper True-Blade. I plan to take my Miracles deck to the top8 because there will be no time limit for the games and 3 wins must be reached to win a turn I think that is favorable for the Miracles.
Later on I will write down which decks I expect and ask for advice from the experienced Miracle players.
As I am the ranked 4 player I will play with the 5th ranked player and I may begin/start/play first. My first opponent in the top8 played Goblins (mono red and splash green for Food Chain) and Goblin Charbelcher decks during the League. I expect him to do so in the top 8 as well.
Sorry for my bad English I dont use it everyday :(
mtglegacy.blog.hu
mtgvintage.blog.hu
I really want to know where you guys get that Oblivion Ring counters Show and Tell. Yes it counters Show and Tell into Emrakul, but better players go for Show and Tell into Griselbrand or Sneak Attack into Griselbrand or Sneak Attack into Emrakul and Griselbrand.
He's still getting absurd card avantage and will combo off next turn with enough protection. So stating that something like Oblivion Ring is a counter to Show and Tell is just wrong. Good S&T players will always try to go for Griselbrand because preboard we have lots of outs. Jace, Terminus, Verdict, Karakas... So a counter to show and tell is only something that stifles Griselbrands Draw 7.
There is only one permanent that makes their whole deck useless and thats humility.
I even don't mentioned the fact that when the S&S has enough mana he can just cast Sneak Attack and kill you while you're looking at your dumb Oblivion Ring. Oblivion Ring is only good against players that are as bad as this card.
And don't come with stuff like that Oblivion Ring counters Jace. I would give my opponent everyday a Oblivion Ring instead of a Blast. Play Jace, then Brainstorm. Go. Fine Timewalk yourself while trying to remove Jace. I will then just disenchant or play Explosives and move on.
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Hello,
show and Tell costs 3 Mana so a oblivion Ring counters Show and Tell when revealed by Counterbalance. So yes it is a solution
against the deck. for GB and Sneak as I mentioned we have needles.
Again we are playing a Counterbalance engine and so we should have engough cards to cover Cmc 1,2,3 and for so we can
counter all relevant Spells with it most of the times. And in this context O ring is superrior to Red Blast because we have
enough Cmc 1but not 3 in our Deck. The superior synergy with the CB is what makes O Ring so versatile in our deck.
Second it counters Jace quite fine. a well played O ring is a solution for the Jace. You stated that they can have disenchant or Explosive but so I can
have a counter for it or nerver get the red Land for the Blast I need. you should see were this leads and why your argument is not vailid.
the Timewalk Agrument is not realy strong to cause I doubt that you will tap out on turn 4 against any control deck for a Jace. So supposed you play
it on turn 6 were you have backup Mana my turn 7 O Ring leaves engough Mana open to react to any of your turn 8 spells. Not to mention that a CB can
counter anything but a EE for 2 payed with 5 or more Mana, which most of the time is not a realy good choice and gets countered most of the
time.
Last but not least I never said its the only solution but one for Jace. you even can start a counter trade and then use O ring to get rid of
it.
Best Regards Teveshszat
Congrats Yami. I played a RiP Miracle list as well, yesterday @ GPT in Mainz missing the Byes unfortunately. Roundups:
NicFit 2:0
SneakShow (camera Feature) 2:0
TeamAmerica (Sinkhole+Stifle) 2:0
Death & Taxes I.D.
TES 2:1
Canadian 11
Quartes: BURG 1:2 (kept a one lander G1 after Mulligan and was punished for it)
Might share the list, which I love (and that I am rocking since 2 months) , although I think most people in here see this as an inferior version of Miracles, so it might not be worth it.
I think evaluating "how often you really use your red sideboard cards for what they are worth" (or better than the alternatives of UW) may help the discussion UWr vs UW. For me, for example, Wear//Tear was more useful @ flipping 1/2 on CB, than on fusing over the last tournaments. When a lot of people could contribute data on this topic, we might have a more streamlined discussion, as I see myself looking into UW when reflecting my experiences.
Yeah if you have Top, and if you have Counterbalance and if both resolve and if you find a 3 drop and if the opponent doesn't counter one of those or doesn't have Pithing Needle on Top. But of course you always have Brainstorms in these situations.... C'mon...
That's not very reliable. Also don't forget that when you tap out Turn 2 on the draw for Countertop and you don't have a CMC 3/4 on top you can very easily just die in that spot.
Please do some math guys, i don't want to post that in detail, but REB is a lot more versatile/ better than Oblivion Ring. Arguments like i play this because of CMC so that i can counter this and that when i have Countertop assembled are not arguments, it's Magical Christmas Land. Do some math guys how likely it is to assemble Countertop (even without any interaction) and how big of a difference 4,5, and 6 cards with CMC 3/4 are. Results will be shocking ;)
And Slamming a Jace on turn 4 can be sometimes the right play, f.ex. if you have Vendilion Clique played on Endstep to look for Counters, i wouldn't even take Oblivion Ring or anything else with Clique if your hand doesn't have anything that interacts with Jace, because i make Card Advantage and you'll timewalk (spend a lot of mana on your turn, so you are mana short on the rest of your turn and my turn so you cannot interact favorable with threats i play or protect threats you play etc.) the next turn.
Only permanent that is very good against S&T is Humility and maybe Pithing Needle. The variance of Oblivion Ring alone is too great against S&T decks.
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List:
Permanents: 15
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells: 21
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Ploeshares
1 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Lands: 24
3 Plains
6 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disenchant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
R1: Jack Dean (Burn) One of my testing partners for Paris. Yay. Ž_Ž
G1 on Draw: Double Flame Rift and attacking with a 1-mana 1/1. I started with little, and drew less. T1 Top, T2 Spin and Crack a fetch, T3 Counterbalance in response kill you or something to this effect.
-1 RiP, -1 Blood Moon, -1 Humility, -1 Verdict, -1 Karakas, +2 Fluster, +2 Pierce, +1 Clasm
G2: He mulls to five. I make Countertop, he Fireblasts me at 3 which I Force, untap and make some Angels.
G3: He mulls to four. He Bolts me twice, then I Force a Fireblast. He gets me to 5 before I manage to find a win condition and beat him to death with CounterTop online from T2 again. Magic: the Gathering.
2-1 / 1-0
R2: Dan (UWR Delver) No offence to this guy, but he was pretty bad.
G1 on Draw: I walk a Top into a Daze, then make a second. Makes two Lands and casts a Jitte. I Force it, then make CB. He Bolts me, and he decides to just cast a Batterskull. I Brainstorm a Force onto my Top and he folds soon after.
I don't remember my board here, but I brought in Needle, Verdict, and didn't board out Jace. Which was probably just plain wrong, but whatever.
G2: He makes Delver, I take 12 from it. I assemble CounterTop whilst he's fucking around with Delver and then StP kills it. I crack a fetch to dig for a kill. He casts Ponder and draws three cards and puts two back. He gets a GL. Later in the day he was also DQ'd for shuffling his sideboard in upside down. I noticed it against me, but just assumed he was a sloppy player not putting his cards back properly. W/e.
2-0 / 2-0
R3: Mikalaj(?) (Elves) Sweet BYE, bro. I lent him a Cradle at the start of the day.
G1 on Play: I FUCKING LOSE. Don't even ask me how. He makes some random guys, goes and gets a Craterhoof and 21's me on like turn 3 or 4. I definitely did something wrong, but I'm not entirely sure what.
I didn't write down my board plans all day, and will make sure to do so next time. I had additional Wraths, Needle, and Clasm.
G2: I make blood Moon on T4 or so and lock myself out of WW, then StP his guy. He draws a Forest (i_i) and makes a guy. I force a guy, then get beaten to death by 1/1's and a DRS. I find a Wrath and he domes me for 4 in response. I stabilise, find some angels and kill him before I actually lose to Elves.
G3: We have 5 minutes left. I dig like fucking mad and just don't interact with him much. StP's fly at some things. He makes some stuff happen and I find an Entreat on T5 of time. Make 4 Angels to make a point and then we draw.
1-1 / 2-0-1
R4: Liam (Nic Fit) I have the guy on a Loam variant (Mox Diamonds and Wastelands) and start off quite iffy because of it.
G1 on Draw: He makes about 9 Lands, I eventually cast a Blood Moon. He 6's himself in response with Fetchlands. I takes random Explorer Beats at various points. He makes some random threats, and ends up casting Huntmaster of the Fells 4 times somehow or another. He swings for game and I make 6 Angels in response. The game ends rather swiftly.
I don't take out Blood Moon because I'm a fucking jerk. I take out 2 Entreat and 3 Jave as there's 5 minutes on the round.
G2: I play some Wraths and things. Assemble CounterTop. We draw. Hurray for UW!
1-0 / 3-0-1
R5: ID w/Sean (Sneak) Friend I came down with. This puts him 1st and me 4th so we'll play in the finals if we get there.
T8: Liam (Nic Fit) Same guy
G1: Knowing he's on Nic Fit I get a nice decent starting hand. He gets a fucking incredible starting hand and just annihilates me with various random giant Spells that cost 4, 5, and 7. Ž_Ž
I still don't take Blood Moon out because I made a pact with Satan.
G2: Not even close. I misplay my way out of the game. I Tutor for a D-Sphere when he has Garruk and nearly flip my Top to draw it, but remember that that's bad Magic and I am good. Untap, Sphere your Garruk, untap and pass. Your EoT I flip top to Wrath your board. Untap, cast top. Response I REB your Sphere. Oh yeah, I forgot that I was bad at Magic you jerk. Sadface. Everyone thinks I'm crap. Yay.
He concedes because he's not going to Paris. I have a slight crisis about wanting to play BUG Delver because I'm starting to get quite tired. Every round apart from R2 has been kind of long.
T4: Split and Concession to the 2 of us going to Paris. We play it out for the byes.
Finals: Sean (Sneak) And we're here like he said.
G1: We do various things. I make a Karakas rather early, and just counter everything he does that is relevant. Super tight game and I played really well, having D-Sphere backup at all times helped, and I got really lucky on a blind flupped CB really early to hit a Ponder.
Again, I should write boards. I pull in Cliques and Venser. Needle finds its way, and all 4 Counterspells.I pitch a Terminus and 4 StP.
G2: "Sulfur Elemental. Any responses." "Errr. No. Well, blind flip my CB? Miss." "Make another." I am just no match for his 3/2's, apparently. I still have 3 Wraths in the deck. I miss my CB trigger 3 times with a 1-drop on top against cantrips. Very disappointed with myself.
G3: Force an early Snrak (T2) and then he casts a Sulfur Elemental. I cast a Clique and race, but I'm 2-turns behind. I make a Jace, and repeatedly bounce his Sulfur Elemental. I miss an opportunity to bait out a recast and counter it with CB in my EoT. Draw a crack a fetch, bounce his Elemental and get ahead in the race. He Sneaks in an Emrakul. I have never lost to an Emrakul in Modern. I have never beaten it in Legacy. The top of my deck is an Entreat and I stare at my potentially 4 Angels worth of mana and take around five minutes to check and recheck that I can do this about four-hundred billion times. I makes 4 Angels, Sacrifice 6 of my 7 lands, and block. It seemed obvious to everyone, but I have literally never beaten Sean in my whole life, so this win coming now was quite a shock to me, and was nicely timed. I've known him for about two-months, we've played like, five times, but still it felt weird.
Almost undefeated. I learned a lot about how to play this deck. Nothing I learned was particularly new to me, but I learned how easy it is to forget the basics after driving to Leeds and playing 3-4 rounds.
I will be cutting Red. Blood Moon becomes Back to Basics, 4 Plains 7 Islands (which means me buying more foil Lands wooo!) and the Pyro out of the board will be a Ghostly Prison until I can source a Propaganda. My friend Ross also suggested boarding a second Karakas, which I'm not totally against. Partly for the S/T MU's, but also just upping to 25 Lands can be brilliant. I often like upping and downing my Land count against certain decks, and Karakas is the perfect Land to do it with, especially as in the mirror where I want 25 Lands I'll be pulling in the Legends anyway.
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Gratz, YamiJoey.
It's not meant rude, but what's the point of your post? A tournament report is not very exciting to read. You should write more about how you came to your list, and analyse more why Miracle is better without red for you.
I also won a trial, and would have won another Trial where i went Top 3, despite conceding for a friend in the swiss and i play every day ~40 people tournaments with a high win ratio but I didn't post anything because i already knew and posted before that a Flash list with red is the best possible list for Miracle in my eyes.
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I can play legacy whenever I want. Cardboard has no value. Data has no value. My time and enjoyment has high value to me. More legacy = more fun. Buy in.
I still need to clean this up some more, but I've been so bogged down with the combination of work and a couple interviews over the last month. Experienced? Yes, I've played the deck extensively since it's inception and almost exclusively for about a year. Good? I'm ok. I'll admit to never top-8ing anything major like an Open or GP, but I came close on a total choke in a win-and-in once, and was a near miss at Legacy Champs, last year. For whatever reason, I crush it a lot harder with this deck online than in paper: http://mtgo-stats.com/decks/player/ziggy_stardust.. it's probably because I can drink beers at home and perfectly calibrate the balmer peak
Most of what I've learned is from the school of Lossett, so I can't recommend his stream enough (well, aside from the fact that he is now focusing on other archetypes, like Tezz, but he still brings out the Miracles from time to time).
Hipsters of the Coast
My articles go up every Thursday at midnight (EST). They're usually about Legacy, but I'll occasionally write about Standard or Modern.
My Twitch
I typically stream 2-3 Legacy dailies per week. These are my most common times:
[s]Sun 8:30pm EST, Tue 10:30pm EST, Wed 8:30pm EST[/s]
11pm EST on weeknights will be my most common time, for now, but here's hoping that WotC goes back to the old, staggered schedule!
He probably posted because someone asked for a report?
I'd also like to know about how he came to his list because honestly that is the more important information. Knowing that you played well during the matches are alright, but decisions as to how the list came together would be cool too.
I'm not sure if B2B really is a good replacement for Blood Moon though. B2B doesn't shut down fetches and still allows opponents one use of their lands, so to me it seems even easier to play around than Blood Moon does. I mean Bernal seemed to use it pretty effectively in his blade deck, but I am unsure. I haven't tested it so maybe it does work better in practice than theory.
I played B2B in a UW list @ BoM Paris and months prior in testing and tournaments. Like you said Moon can create some more blowout scenarios than BtB can. I see BtB as the stronger card overall, as Moon will often screw yourself as well. I think Miracles has the most important fetches of all the decks in the format, so letting them live can be HUGE. BtB can help you come from situations where you are behind, whereas Moon will mostly win even boardstates or boardstates where you're ahead. Being blue and pitching to Force helps too (saying the obvious)I'm not sure if B2B really is a good replacement for Blood Moon though. B2B doesn't shut down fetches and still allows opponents one use of their lands, so to me it seems even easier to play around than Blood Moon does. I mean Bernal seemed to use it pretty effectively in his blade deck, but I am unsure. I haven't tested it so maybe it does work better in practice than theory.
Combined wih a second BtB in the board and Misdirections and/or Pierces this card can give serious headaches to various DtB atm. In an enchantment-heavy build I see this card as a good substitute for Moon if you want to stay UW. Although I will stick to UWr because of Blasts, I would be happy to see more play of this card in legacy.
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The point of Blood Moon is that when you resolve it, it should basically be game over. If you've set up properly (usually just two Islands is enough, although a Plains or two is good bonus) then you should be able to close out a game fairly fast with a Jace or a Clique or whatever. If the board is already full of threats or if you have reason to believe Blood Moon would hurt you more than them then it's simple... just don't cast it or wait to cast it until after you've Terminus'd or something.
Back to Basics is very different. It is somewhat disruptive to some decks, but can be played around fairly easily. Its point is that it is usually much less disruptive to you than them and doesn't really require a setup. Honestly, I don't think Back to Basics is ever really worth a card. It does nothing to fetchlands; it doesn't stop them from tapping their non-basics at least once (for Abrupt Decay or REB in particular); it does nothing against Dark Depths; it is awful against Daze; etc. If you don't like Blood Moon then that's fine, but B2B is just not a good replacement.
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