Maybe you could talk a bit more about what is hurting you in this matchup? I haven't played it a lot, but on paper it looks as if you win if you can kill Deathrite in a timely fashion (so PF #4 should be a good call).Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
On another note, I wondered if we could steal some tech from Andersons Jund Depths board: I'm talking about the Reanimate plan against combo decks. Of course, you would need a specific MD (with Entombs) but the BUG list a few pages back could do it. Is this plan too unreliable without the digging of Faithless Looting? Is it a bad plan in the first place?
Bad.
It's a nonrecurable, two card combo weak to countermagic. Besides requiring 4 entomb you also need a manabase to reliably always play reanimate by turn two. Useless if you draw the fatties. Faithless looting, liliana, and smallpox mitigate this drawback in pox decks, so expect to see similar sb plans from that archetype.
Even with twest, access to a single chalice in the opener is hard enough. Adding more factors to a sb plan that might get here and has no other interactions with the deck? No thank you. I'll spend my 6 sb slots elsewhere.
Jund depths would rather have chalice vs combo but can't as they fold to it.
You could reasonbly do this if you wanted to use more cmc1 cards like crop rotation. This cuts Intuition in favor of speed and playing around taxing counters aggressively.
This deck looks interesting and someday I may try it, but Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon terrify me.
Pfire and mox all day err day.
Sux to be lands g1 if it happens turn 1, but if you know they have moons then playing around them g1 is certainly not as challenging as before. G2 helps with seals, AD, or a reliable kgrip. TNN hate overlaps here too(i.e. EE lock@3).
BUG Delver usually doesn't run any basic lands or Stifle, so Wasteland lock is easy to achieve. The game plan should be Wasteland lock plus an early Tabernacle and/or multiple Mazes to buy you time to find Tabernacle. I've played the matchup from both sides and can say that it should be 60-40 or better in Lands' favor for Game 1. The versions of Lands that focus on Transmute are more reliable at putting this together because the BUG player's countermagic can't disrupt the tutoring. The Entomb versions are the weakest because of the susceptibility to Deathrite Shaman. Punishing Fire + Grove can also be a big problem unless they open with Tarmogoyfs. Maze of Ith stops all BUG's creatures unless they are running Nimble Mongoose. The BURG deck runs Mongeese, but BUG Delver usually doesn't.
What is the best sb plan vs bug?
-3Intuition
-1Crime
-1Crucible/chasm
+4 Chalice
+1 Cursed Totem
Recently I have taken out 4 Exploration instead of the 3Intuition + another card. Exploration has honestly been very underwhleming and rarely stays in play between aggressively setting ee@1, a nombo with a chalice set to one, or an instant AD target if I have a loam going. Very low impact in all my games and gets worse when they bring in golgari charm...
I would cut Manabond before Exploration, but I don't know your exact list. I found one by you on Page 116, so I'm basing my advice on that. I probably would board out O. Stone because BUG Delver doesn't commit much to the board. It's also slow. Engineered Explosives is just better at doing the same thing. If I had access to two Tabernacles, I would board in a second one. I wouldn't board out Crucible.
Edit: Also, if you do board out Explorations, you should board out Ensnaring Bridge, because without them you aren't going to be able to empty your hand fast enough for it to be good in the matchup.
I like 3 ee main since the gp and TNN decks. Ostone was for TNN and show and tell decks, but it does seem innefficient here. I actually do have another tabernacle, but two are used for tribal dominant formats, no? Bridge was meant to supplement maze and can be recurred back. I had games where drs just exiles my maze when I dredge into them and I have no protection left from 5/6goyfs. Bridge is admitedly not the best answer to thier delvers, but pfire,ee, and any maze usually ties them up(ebridge currently in sb since marit is md). Thanks.
Try out two Tabernacles and see if that makes the matchup better for you. BUG Delver doesn't run very many lands, so Tabernacle plus Wasteland is crippling more often than not.
This is one of the best cards in the deck and helps you establish wasteland lock way earlier/easier. I would advise against ever taking this out. (in my opinion of course)
Depending on the BUG list, some people are not even running GY hate, so you can leave your intuitions in, if that is the case.
Hey guys, I'm gonna be running my favorite deck at the SCG open today! It's my Jace build, as follows:Spells:24
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands:36
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Smokestack
1 Batterskull
I really dislike and disagree with the Jund list (any non blue list really) because they give up so much play an versatility without Intuition, Academy Ruins, and Tolaria West. E-Tutor is also necessary in my opinion for finding all of the important cards in a given matchup while protecting them from discard. With this build of the deck I find that any non-combo matchup is easily winnable with good prediction and tight play, and the combo decks are beatable post board by establishing early Chalices/Spheres and assembling Depths.
Lands on stream round 9 !
What happened with this list for the day?
I hope he made a last minute change of heart and and is now the lands player in the finals.
Nope, is somebody else. The player who won said he moved away from intuition builds for quite awhile.
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/15798#221318
Looking at the above list, I was wondering how important running more than 2 Port was. I hardly ever win with its help.
I'd rather have it be faithless loothing, a black splash, or anything else.
Also, I'd like to see more cursed totem in the side. Since the deck can't beat Show and storm.
So yea, I wanna hear reasons to keep 2 ports. you could just copy it with stage BTW.
Last edited by That nice guy; 01-27-2014 at 05:14 PM.
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
Port is better than wasteland in many of my games. Would never go below 4. Do not understand how it doesn't help win games.
Edit: Totem for storm? Tinfins? Bog or the 6 spheres + chalice seem more relevant. Show and tell is 3 mana so manadisruption is a thing here.
Karakas and maze is good enough vs grisel and friends. A 20/20 also kills sneak&show when maxing all the pieces after siding. Deck is solid. Even with less pieces than blue lands, Kurt's list is still no utopilot. Port is a t1/2 play so I would want 4.
Getting ports tapped and wasted at your eot vs d&t is a thing. Got to cut off swords and karakas when marit attacks or prevent a meddling or RiP. You want to hit port when you dredge. Blue lists get cute with it and sometimes run 3 but also dredge into twest and have intuition.
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 01-27-2014 at 05:52 PM.
Oops, should said more than 2 port.
Incoming Edit.
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
My list ended up going 5-3 and then I dropped cause I was starving and didn't want to play another hour for the chance at $50, considering word going around was that most X-3's wouldn't make it and my tiebreakers blew, since two of my match wins were to no-shows. Congrats, though, to the lands player who won! He is a local that I know quite well and we were all proud of him. His list eschewed control elements for much quicker speed in assembling waste lock, PFires, and the Depths combo. My only change to the deck before the event was cutting the sideboard Batterskull for a Helm of Obedience. Mostly because I just really wanted to get someone off of their own RiP, and the dream came true!
Round 1 was against Esper Stoneblade. I won game 1 pretty handily, assembling wasteland and ghost quarter to lock him out, and I was behind a Maze of Ith for his only threat. He scooped at about the 20 minute mark, which was a good play for him because it left him with plenty of time to close games 2 and 3, but it also gave me the time to see how many basics he ran by looping Ghost Quarter. This can be good info to have for the rest of the match, because you can decide when it's right to ghost quarter over doing something proactive, but since he ran 5 basics I wasn't about to try it again until I was way ahead. I brought in the second EE, Needle, O-Stone, Metamorph, and possibly Smokestack. I didn't bring in the helm because he discarded a few lingering souls and Snapcasters game 1, so it didn't seem like he'd run RiP. Game two I kept a hand with no acceleration effects but double Wasteland and Ensnaring Bridge, and got punished for it by his fetching up basics and landing an early TNN, then countering my Ensnaring Bridge. At one point i get to Metamorph the TNN and attempt a race since i was at a higher life total than him, but he lands Jitte and I can't find EE in time before i fall behind and lose the race. This was unfortunately an omen of things to come: this control version of Lands needs a much better answer to TNN for it to be competitive. Game three I had a good start with a Port and a few Wastelands, but eventually we got to a situation where he had a Stoneforge Mystic in play with five lands on the upkeep and I have Tabernacle. He untaps and moves to draw his card, and out of habit from playing this deck I say "wait, I wanna port you on the upkeep" so I do, he draws and plays Jace, fate seals and passes. I then realize that we missed the Tabernacle trigger so I call the judge. He initially rules that since I missed the trigger, my opponent gets to choose whether it goes on the stack, but I remind him that Tabernacle gives the opponent's creatures an ability which he controls, so the judge refers it to another judge, who rules that we take the default action (kill Stoneforge) and slaps my opponent with a Game Rule Violation warning, which makes me feel like a dick because I always try to be a kind and courteous opponent and I don't wanna scum over my opponent in future rounds because of a common mistake. If we hadn't missed the tabernacle trigger, it's likely he would have paid for Stoneforge (he told me he drew the Jace that turn), I would have been allowed to port a second land after Tabernacle, and then he wouldn't be able to cast Jace, and next turn I would have Wasted and passes with double port up. In testing all Stoneblade variants are great matchups, as they are very weak to resolved Ensnaring Bridge as well as usually having a mana base weak to Port, but things happen!
Round two was a slaughter. I played against someone who I had sat next to yesterday in the Standard event, and I had overheard her telling her opponent she played Merfolk, so I came in expecting another easy matchup. I was wrong. She had insane draws, vial into lord into TNN, vial in Lord. Not a single Mutavault for me to waste, double Force of Will for my EE and Ensnaring Bridge, and a Wasteland for my Maze of Ith keeping me on life support. I board in the second EE, O-Stone, and board out Karakas and Urborg. Game two I have an insane start with double mox, exploration, and Crucible, with a Wasteland in the yard and a Tabernacle for turn two. She starts on Vial, thus ignoring everything I have, getting vial to 3 and slamming TNN. She again had the force for my Bridge and the Waste for my Glacial Chasm, and I died. Again, this matchup is usually favorable, since everything but TNN gets mazed and Tabernacle usually does a lot of work, while EE is super strong at clearing boards and they have no answer to Depths combo, but early TNNs can be brutal.
I lived the dream in round 3, facing RiP miracles. Usually a bad matchup, I played to a situation where I was under RiP and my opponent had Counterbalance, but I was reasonably sure I had run my opponent out of Forces with a crucible and a Jace. So I cast EE at 5, sunburst 2, and counterbalance didn't flip one of the two remaining Forces so it resolves and I blow the RiP and CB. I then waste his Karakas and start to assemble Depths, when he strangely just plays and activates Helm. I'm like "for one?" And he says yes, so I just mill a fetch land and EoT make a 20/20. I think he thought I'd just scoop to helm, forgetting that the RiP had been blown up turns ago or something. I board in Chalice of the Void, Needle, O-Stone, Smokestack, and Helm. I naturally draw the Helm in my opener, alongside a Port and two Chalice. So I hatch the plan in my head to just jam everything I can to bait out counters and hope he casts RiP and walks into it. The plan works, as over the first four turns I throw out Chalice at 1 into Force, Chalice at 1 into Counterspell, Jace into Spell pierce, and my opponent resolves a Counterbalance and a Rest in Peace. With only one card in hand I'm pretty sure the way is cleared for my Helm, and it resolves and I get him good! One of the highlights of the day, by far.
Round 4 I get a default win because my opponent is a no-show (probably having just picked up his second loss and neglecting to officially drop) but round 4 I played against MUD with the 12post manabase. I foolishly keep a hand that has no mana disruption, but a pair of Maze of Ith and a Jace, so it'd be strong against most creature-based decks and have at least a little game against Stoneblade variants. My opponent opens t1 cloudpost, t2 Vesuva, Chalice at 1, t3 some land, Lodestone golem, I play Jace and bounce it, t4 Ancient Tomb, Karn Liberated, exile your Jace. I have absolutely zero outs in my deck so I scoop instantly. I punish him for it games 2 and 3, though. I had insane luck, my openers in both hands had turn 2 waste lock. Game two was mox, mox, exploration, trop, turn 2 Crucible, waste you. He durdles a bit then scoops. Game three he leads on Cloudpost, I go mox, exploration, Urborg, wasteland you, turn 2 Loam. He doesn't scoop this one but the land I discarded to Mox was Tolaria West, which allowed me to transmute for Depths combo by turn 5. He hastily signs the match slips and tells me something like "it takes a special kind of asshole to play that deck" before storming off. Apparently he forgot that he's playing Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere too. We're birds of a feather :P
I get another good matchup round 6 in the form of UWR delver. They don't have Mongoose like RUG or Deathrite like BUG, Stoneforge is slow and weak to Maze, their manabase is awful, and so the only thing you have to worry about is True-Name. I don't remember a ton about this matchup but game 1 involves a lot of Wastelands and Ports, game 2 there was a sweet play where my opponent was down to just a basic Island and had a flipped Delver attacking me, underneath my Tabernacle so he could only pay for Delver and attack me. I have Academy Ruins in hand, so I play out Trinisphere. His only option is to Daze, thus killing his Delver on the upkeep since he no longer controls an island. He replays island and passes, I play Academy Ruins, then he draws Tundra and plays Rest in Peace. I activate academy to save Trinisphere, draw it and slam it on the next turn. So he's stuck on two lands and under a Sphere, but I'm locked out of my graveyard. Over the next few turns I waste the Tundra, and by the time he draws back up to three lands I've got Chalices at 1 and 2. He slams True-Name Nemesis as his only play, but I'm ahead on life and race it with a Tar pit and a Zuran Orb.
Round 6 was a testament to how weak Delver decks are to mana denial, but my round 7 against RUG went quite differently. He won the roll and lead with Mongoose, I lead with Port and pass. He slams Goyf, and over the next few turns I try to wasteland him, hoping he'll miss a land drop and give me some breathing room but he drew at least 5 lands and had countermagic for my bridge and wasteland for my Maze and I succumbed rather quickly to the beatdown. Game two was much different. I pulled ahead early with an exploration effect and then got Bridge down, which he was pretty cold to, but he threatened me quite a bit by drawing Loam and wasting me a few times.Luckily he was tapping out each turn and didn't have force, and I resolved chalices at 1 and 2, which basically was game if he didn't run Krosan Grip. I saw a destructive revelry so I assumed no Grip was present. Unfortunately the chalices also stopped me fon wining the game, since they shut off my Enlightened Tutor and Loam. Eventually I draw Smokestack, and start grinding him out. He concedes to this with about 5 minutes left on the clock. I thought we could establish a draw which would still leave us probable for top 32, but my opponent has a blistering start with a Mongoose and a Goyf, Forced my Chalice at 1, lost my Maze to a Wasteland, and got bolted out. Tough luck but his deck cooperated better than mine.
I intended to drop at x-3, but one of the guys in my carpool was still in a draft so I played another round, since I love legacy and don't get a ton of opportunities to play it competitively. Unfortunately when I sat down my opponent was again absent, so I waited the ten minutes to pick up some extra PWPs before I informed the judge my opponent was gone and marked drop on the slip and made the trek back home. There was only one round to go but my friends were done their draft and we were all hungry so we left.
Overall my deck felt versatile and given enough time I felt sure I could adapt to most threats. True-Name Nemesis continues to be a problem, though on its own you can race it, establish Bridge or Chasm lock, or outlive it with Zuran Orb. The problems occur when it comes out quick, is assisted by lords or equipment, or is backed by sufficient disruption. I didn't get to play against combo, though as you can tell the board is pretty stacked against them and my build gives me unique access to the hate cards with Enlightened Tutor, Intuition, Tolaria West, and Jace. I also think that none of my matches could have been won with Punishing Fire, though my day was remarkably Deathrite-free. And it's not like Red Lands has any additional ways to beat TNN or combo, so since our creature matchups are already good I like this build's ability to hedge it's bets. In conclusion, though Kurt's list obviously got the big W I wouldn't write off the blue build just yet. It has the tools to succeed in the metagame and there's no better feeling than a Jace behind a lock.
lol as someone who used to play White Stax and now is playing lands, i find this extremely entertaining. Kudos on the finish man.
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