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Originally Posted by Echelon
I didn't feel like you were making fun of me, but I wanted to address that comment. :)
You clearly do not understand what makes magic a collectible card game and what makes it successful. Fakes will turn MTG into a board game. Wotc would sell less packs, stores would go out
of business and so hasboro would discontinue the game. If you can't see or understand that, I am very sorry for you. Ask yourself this question would you pay 4.00 a pack for worth less cards?
If you want to play mtg just for the fun of it, no one is stopping you. Buy some cheap commons off ebay and play those cards with your friends.
The entitlement complex of people favoring the counterfeits is just sad. It's pretty easy to predict where they fall on real-world issues...
Still do not understand why need those fakes to have a fun from the game.
Playing EDH every week with my friends. Only casual in our tearoom. They spent ~300 CZK (15USD) on each of their deck. And they are playing duallands, fetchlands etc.
Yes, you can buy a color printer on your own. And during the game, I cannot find out what card is printed home and what card is original.
Nobody needs fakes (for tens of USD!) to have a fun with magic. And playing fakes on official tournaments actually killing the game, because there will be less and less organisators.
Is that not what most people do already? The content of most boosters is worth less than what was spent on them.
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
Online Trading Reference Checker
You know what's also killing the game? Pricelevels. It's the official main reason why Legacy is still not considered for being a Pro-Tour format.
Reprinting cards Modern-Masters style will accomplish only little; reprinting them in either a T2 legal set or something with the same kind of availability will help, see Thoughtseize.
Of course counterfeits are no actual solution and will hurt the game. But I'm honestly glad we're even having this more general debatte about availability because of them.
Also, people, don't bullshit about entitlement. We're not taking about people wanting to play golf or go diving on the Maldives.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Nobody buys packs to get cards. At least not cards relevant to this forum. And Julian as usual is right. Legacy being more popular than ever is putting availability at an all time low. It is an inevitability that some party will expand availability, and I think everybody's first choice is Hasboro, but as long as they refuse to answer, then next in line is China.
Especially the bolded part. This kills me. The scope of the conversation gets totally lost when people start rolling in their outside opinions about what is, or is not, entitlement.
Case in point.
But go ahead and just leave it ambiguous enough that you could turn around and go, "what umadbro? I didn't say which 'issues' I was talking about, you took it there not me man lolz"The entitlement complex of people favoring the counterfeits is just sad. It's pretty easy to predict where they fall on real-world issues...
Look, it's not that hard -- you want to talk about the game, talk about the game. 'Real-world issues', whatever you're implying by that, I'm guessing have jack to do with the topic at hand.
Honestly I couldn't care less whether or not counterfeits exist; the only time I've ever even considered them is to make some alters instead of ruining my actual cards, and otherwise I cannot stand to use proxies because "I just don't like them."
If you are pro-counterfeits, you are in favor of stealing from WotC and fellow Magic players who have invested into the format. You feel entitled to the product because you perceive it as too expensive. You might as well go print yourself some counterfeit 100 dollar bills as well and go to town.
And TsumiBand, you don't need to respond if the comment makes you uncomfortable. I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.
This is rich when it's those against reprints -- the accusers in this case -- that are holding legacy ransom. I'll spell it out for you, since you don't have the horsepower to chug through the logic yourself:
1) Card price is directly linked to playability, not reprint policy. Case in point, goyf can be reprinted as many times as WOTC feels, and is still $140. Meanwhile, most of the reserved list can't crack $5, because the majority of them are bad cards. In terms of the number of cards printed in the history of the game, the vast majority are in fact worthless, and it's only the very top percentile that just so happen to be eternally playable that are affected by counterfeits. Expensive cards are not the gel holding this game together, players are.
2) Right now, the playability of legacy cards is buoyed primarily by SCG and their tournament circuit. Revised underground seas have now been bumped up to $250, which is an astronomical price for cards that were never meant to be a collectors' items in the first place (which is why revised has white borders; if you wanted to collect, you would get betas and alphas, which have black borders, and were intended as collectibles). SCG is not only one of the primary vendors, they are effectively 90% of the US legacy tournament scene, and the major driving force behind its popularity as a format. Without SCG, legacy would be in very, very serious trouble.
3) If you look at the formats, the price of entry is a far more reliable indicator of the number of players it has than the quality of its gameplay. There is a direct correlation between low prices, a high number of players, and tournament regularity, with casual, limited, EDH, and standard having vastly more players than the eternal formats. At this stage, though a number of you will likely deny it, even modern is more widespread, despite WOTC's consistent fuck-ups. Legacy has a devoted following, but in relative terms, it is being outpaced by the other formats because players are largely unable to buy in with prices as they currently are.
4) At some stage -- I don't know when -- SCG will drop legacy as its Sunday format. Sooner or later, the growth will end (I'm thinking sooner) as the available card pool is pushed to its limits, and prices climb ever higher; not only will modern eventually produce larger profit margins than legacy (if it doesn't already), there will be significant demand from its larger and more influential player base for a tournament series. If SCG doesn't offer this, a competitor will, and will supplant SCG as the dominant card trader, and tournament provider. I'm not sure how many of you noticed, but this is already starting to happen, with numerous players on the larger message boards asking why SCG doesn't hold modern tournaments. We could be seeing a radical shift away from the format as early as next year if things stay on their current trajectory.
5) When SCG does drop legacy, the prices of many staples will collapse. Price memory will prevent them from being worthless, but being legal in niche, largely unsupported formats, will mean that they lose most of their current value. At this stage, we've lost not only the value on the cards, but also the tournament scene as well. As anyone with a clue will tell you, the prices, not counterfeits, are the thing that will kill legacy.
Now, these counterfeits are a unique opportunity, because they will have relatively little impact on standard due to the inherent risk and time required to counterfeit a constant supply of new cards. I'm not saying it can't be done, but these guys are still having trouble getting 20 year old cards with no counterfeit protection right. In light of this, I'm not particularly worried about Wizards' bottom line. Further to this point, I can think of plenty of instances of markets collapsing due to bubbles bursting (Dotcom bubble? 2008? GFC? That should ring a bell for some of you), but I cannot for the life of me think of a single example of counterfeits ever causing economic collapse or disaster anywhere. Seriously, if anyone can find an example, I'd actually be curious to know, because thus far, I'm reasonably certain that no precedent for it actually exists. Rather, this is likely the best thing that has ever happened to the format, because it means a way around the reprint policy, even if it has to be done with some plausible deniability. As I mentioned earlier, prices are the most accurate indicator of how widely played a format is, and so all the evidence and precedents suggest that a massive drop in prices (due to high quality counterfeits or reprints, it matters not) will actually increase the number of players and tournaments being held. The fact is, without new cards, the prices are rapidly reaching the point of unsustainability (and I would argue they've already moved beyond that); without new people entering the format, legacy will be superseded by larger, more influential formats, and we'll go the same way as vintage. But hey, at least entitled kids never got to play with your cards, right?
I'm going to shut this one down right now: legality is not, and never has been, a yardstick by which to measure morality. Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong. Likewise, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. As things currently stand, any position supporting the status quo is implicitly compliant with the inevitable death of legacy. Make no mistake, prices are a far greater threat to the format than counterfeits will ever be.If you are pro-counterfeits, you are in favor of stealing from WotC and fellow Magic players who have invested into the format. You feel entitled to the product because you perceive it as too expensive. You might as well go print yourself some counterfeit 100 dollar bills as well and go to town.
And TsumiBand, you don't need to respond if the comment makes you uncomfortable. I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.
Stopped reading there. It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact of what could happen if a lot of people think like you do.
Yes, if prices were directly linked to playability Brainstorm would have been the most expensive card in Legacy. The simple fact is card prices are influenced by multiple factors and scarcity is also one them.
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
You're a moron if you think the reprint policy protects the value of your cards. You can't protect value if no demand exists; currently, most cards are worth fractions of a dollar, including most cards on the reserved list. Valuable cards are the exception, not the rule.
brainstorm is a common that is only legal in legacy, and restricted in vintage. Scarcity for brainstorm doesn't even exist at this stage. Meanwhile, remand is a $15 uncommon... For most cards, scarcity is less important than their in-game use, which is why most rares ever printed fall within the $2 range, and cards like force of will end up costing $80. Demand is driven by playability more than collectibility, and without that demand, even the most restricted and sacred supply of cards would be completely worthless. Furthering this point, collectibility is also driven in part by playability; as playability and value decrease, so too does collectibility. The fact is, players are more crucial to the format's health than the price of cards, because without players, the demand collapses, and so too does everything else.
Actually, you don't need to haul in unrelated information, in particular ones that are intentionally vague and then go on to make oblique comments like this:
This is exactly what I mean. What is this, Clue? Marxism as a red herring? How is anyone supposed to get any real bickering done around here, when you're polluting the channel? Christ on a crab shell!I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.
I don't know what else to say… You are in favor of stealing from WotC, screwing over the secondary market (vendors like SCG who hold tournaments I assume you play in and enjoy), and all the while reaping what you consider to be personal gain and an increase in the "greater good"… Hopefully you realize at some point that the tournaments you play in only exist because people buy packs of real Magic cards and people purchase real singles from vendors on the secondary market for this collectible card game. What you are in favor of is not only illegal, but also incredibly immoral. This is even before you begin to discuss the logic of what you said about the game collapsing because it loses players to price. Did you ever consider that the price is high because more and more players have been playing the game? If you accept that as the primary reason for the high price of cards, it is illogical for the game to die because of price, because there is an equilibrium point.
This isn't true in the slightest. 90% of the price increases are speculatory bubbles, nothing more nothing less. Or you seriously believe that the demand for duals has increased more than 20 times compared to 10 years ago? Because if anything the old Extended + T1 playerbase was huge compared to the current Legacy + T1 playerbase.
There are tons of reasons included in why prices of cards fluctuate, but I have played Magic for a long time, and there are A LOT more people playing eternal Magic now than there were 10 years ago...
Problem is prices don't fluctuate, they just go up. Only up.
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