Assuming that they never leave your possession, it doesn't matter how good they look. However, it does matter where you got them. Buying Magic cards from counterfeiters supports the Magic counterfeiting "industry," and this is bad. If you had your own printing press and made the most perfect fakes (which only you would use for casual games and which would never leave your person) then literally no one would care.Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
edit: For example, this guy shows you how to make pretty sick foil proxies. I've used this technique to make a bunch of custom-art foil tokens, and will most likely eventually make some proxy Vintage decks for me and my friends. They look pimp, but if you take them out of the sleeve (or if you use alternate art) it is very easy to distinguish them from real cards. I'm not supporting counterfeiters, I'm not hurting LGSs, I'm not damaging the secondary market, and I can still play good looking proxies while spending very little money.
If you really are only interested in playing casually with good looking proxies and aren't looking to screw someone then I highly doubt your friends would complain about you showing up with proxied foil Tundras and Force of Wills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAV1WI98lKE
So if it had a gold boarder would you use it?
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
As promised, a picture of some of my proxies:
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If I buy my proxies from a second hand operation, I'm actually not supporting the counterfeiting operation (i.e. Jane buys her proxies from China, and I buy a few proxies from Jane). But I could argue that anyone who buys their cards at Wal Mart is hurting LGS's which ultimately hurts Wizards. It wouldn't be a very good argument though.
As far as golden borders. If Wizards of the Coast printed a bunch of Modern staples with golden borders for a reasonable rate, I would buy them, for sure. But fake cards from China with golden borders, no. I have people at my LGS and friends that on principle refuse to play against proxies for no good reason. They feel that proxies interfere with gameplay because "it's not the same" Some of them believe you shouldn't be able to play with good decks if you are poor. Both of these things are stupid, and if I play with passable proxies, what they don't know doesn't hurt them and game play is the same.
I'm not looking to dupe or screw anyone, I would NEVER sell or trade proxies as real cards, that's so messed up. I just want my cards to look real because I want have a great paper MTG experience that feels real, I just can't afford to pay $3000. I think it's bogus to say "well, you are poor, so just play limited and pauper." I'd say, "No, I'm going to play Modern and Legacy, with proxies that are passable, so I can have the same experience as you and we can play competitive games." I'm not hurting you though, and it doesn't affect gameplay at all. I just don't want to spend thousands of dollars to play a game, but I don't want to play with crappy cards.
You can claim that proxies are going to crash the value of your cards, but it's a baseless claim. There's no evidence to prove this. There are already thousands of proxies that are passable in America, but your cards still hold value. People want real cards, people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their LGS's, people don't like buying cards online, etc. There are hundreds of thousands of fake Gucci handbags and Babe Ruth baseball cards, but the originals are still worth a lot, and their brands are still in business.
It's not cards that are obvious proxies are going to crash the game, it's the cards that are created and meant to be indistinguishable from the real thing that is going to crash the game. Your own intent doesn't come into it, unfortunately there are others who aren't as virtuous.
Well judge and shame those people, not players like myself. I don't see how I'm part of the problem. I wasn't going to actually spend $3000 on Stoneblade anyway.
Secretly.A.Bee, I guess your proxies are cool. Some of my friends wouldn't want to play with them, because they look like clear fakes. People at my LGS only want to play with real cards in casual, for whatever arbitrary reason (it obviously doesn't have to do with gameplay, unless they are really crappy proxies that slow down gameplay). But if I play with passable proxies, I can still play with them, they won't protest or refuse to play with them because they will believe they are real. No victims, no harm.
Buying counterfeit cards that are meant to look real means you are part of the problem. Whatever you might plan on doing with your fakes is not relevant. You are literally funding their production, and for every person who buys them and only uses them for casual purposes there is some number of people that will sell or trade them as authentic. Again, what you do with the counterfeits does not matter. The issue is what happens to the money that you pay them. I'll give you a hint: It goes towards undermining Magic the Gathering.
They aren't supposed to pass for the real thing, they are proxies . They are cheap (literally pennies each) and extremely accurate, but never even come close to threatening the secondary market (or any other market for that matter).
I print 8 to a page in landscape format and I have D&T fully proxied along with elves and UWR Delver. I also have Tin Fins completed but the duals/fetches are obviously in esper so I proxy them so I can have both assembled at the same time. My friends appreciate the fact that they get solid play testing against a large part of the format and also proxy whatever they want to test. This way we have our pet decks that we spent a good amount of money on and can compete in tourneys, but more importantly we get good experience with them against the best decks in the format.
Edit: You can look into using artist proofs to "fool" your friends without undermining WotC/Hasbro. They are white backed so just use dark colored sleeves and they will be none the wiser.
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I already explained how I'm not literally funding their production if I'm buying them second hand (Jane buys the proxies from China, and I buy some proxy fetch lands from Jane). If you really want to talk about how it all goes back to the money on your initial investment, then stop buying Nike products or shopping at Target or Wal Mart. Or start judging everyone who does.
Ultimately the bottom line is that if I'm using passable proxies during gameplay, whether it's a casual pick me up game, an EDH game, or a semi competitive game, the proxies do nothing to affect or hinder the outcome of the game. The proxies eliminate and arbitrary barrier to entry that makes the game less accessible to players. The player that should win a game isn't the player with the most money available to invest the game, but instead the player with the best ability.
Selling and trading the proxies as real cards is terrible. I think that's something we can all agree on. Also, if Wizards actually reprinted cards that were clearly in demand more aggressively, I wouldn't want to buy passable proxies anyway. This isn't just cards that are on the reserve list either, I'm talking about cards like the fetch lands, bob, goyf, shocks, v clique, etc.
Edit: If I play with passable proxies, but I don't sell or trade them, nothing I am doing is "undermining Magic the Gathering"
"If my minimum wage job paid me 6 figures a year, I wouldn't make counterfeit $100 bills."
See how terribly ignorant that sounds and is?
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Except counterfeiting $100 bills hurts the economy and has drastic consequences when you try to pass them off as real $100 bills. If you wanted to make proxy money, but you didn't intend on purchasing anything with it while passing it as real money, I wouldn't judge you and I don't think anyone would care.
See, you do get it.
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Your analogy is terrible.
Wizards won't reprint cards that I want to play with, and because they are absurdly expensive, I choose to play with affordable passable proxies. These proxies don't hinder or affect game play, I think they look cool, I don't intend to sell or buy them and they don't affect you. You shouldn't care what my proxies look like, because they don't affect you.
No one cares what your proxies look like. We care who you are supporting with your money. Literally the only reason to buy counterfeits rather than make your own cheaper proxies is because you are trying to trick someone into thinking that they are real.
I should own a large percentage of Sharpie with all the proxies I've made. Is supporting 3M okay?
-Matt
Sure. Why does it matter if I want my cards to look convincing and passable if I'm not selling or trading them?
You claim you care about who I'm supporting with my money, but you wouldn't care if I spend hundreds of dollars on gold bordered proxies or even hand written proxies. You have a problem with me having a great paper MTG experience unless I pay my way into it, or was playing long enough where I had cards before they were expensive. Instead of making the game about competition and gameplay, you want it to be about cost.
Obvious troll is obvious guys, stop fucking feeding him and he'll die of hunger. He clearly can't read or half of these posts would have never occurred.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Yeah. I'm obviously a troll simply because I don't agree with you. Why don't you explain your problem with my reasoning instead of assuming the worst?
What? As I said, you can have whatever experience you want as long as you aren't supporting counterfeiters. You can very easily make your own proxies that look great and might even be passable for real cards when sleeved. The point of these counterfeits is that they are meant to be undetectable. They are not meant to just look good; they are meant to be real. I'd love for Legacy to be cheaper and I dearly hope that all this drama motivates WotC to reprint Legacy staples. That doesn't change the fact that counterfeiting can only hurt the game in the long run.
I want to see some Arabian Nights Mountains with "Werebear" written across the face in giant bold Sharpie.
I'm now officially through with this thread.
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